War game scenario's

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
Needless to say, in the present the few decent landing zones are obviously marked by the ROC Army. While the conflict is still in a conventional warfare stage, Taiwan has the advantage even over the vastly superior PLA, simply because it has the advantage of being the defender, and hence the all-important fire support, as Gollevainen mentioned. Infantry is helpless against artillery fire, and hitting PLA Marines on beaches is what ROC artillery is trained to do. Hell, even a massive airdrop over a Taiwanese urban area might be more effective just because they're afraid of friendly fire.

I think this is the most cogent point about amphibious invasion. I have made a similar argument in defencetalk, that artillery will be decisive as much as air power. What does PRC plan to do about Taiwanese artillery? What is the state of their artillery deployment, are they in bunkers like NK artillery? Are they easily spotted, vulnerable to cluster bombs or to PGM's?

In terms of "very few decent landing zones" I wonder if there is a lot of bias in what's considered "very few" or "decent". If it's truly very few which are usable you'll see Taiwan beaches nothing but twists of steel spikes. China would not even bother to build amphibious tanks.


I think there is a political dimension here that should not be ignored. Taiwan certainly has enough money to plaster the entire island with artillery and AA. They have had 60 years to fortify 1200km of coastline. If they wanted they could be armed to teeth like NK with 1 million men, with a completely impenetrable coastline. The fact that this is not their situation tells us they chose to have a different kind of society. They may have some professional troops and some good equipment, but in the end they will choose to save their society rather than being destroyed.
 
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Gollevainen

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However, let me work with the numbers as I understand them.

170,000 troops are deployed on the island of Taiwan at any time. Clearly more are deployed in the North than the center as well. The other matter is that the center consists of more than the western coast.

Are troops deployed on the eastern coast, the other side of Taiwan's mountain range? Those troops will have a much harder time getting over to the western shores.

Ultimately, if troops are distributed equally, the central coastline should have around 57,000 troops to defend it. Taiwan isn't going to move all of them over to one point or two points either. It's likely that, expecting the possibility of more than one invasion, attempting to stave off airborne invasions, and to protect strategic infrastructure that much less than 57,000 troops will be devoted to those areas where actual landings have occured. I'm thinking at most 30,000 troops will be devoted to that landing zone, most likely the nearest troops.

You seems to stick with the mass numbers of troops while they tell you nothing yet. More important are the units where the troops are assigned it, corps, divisions and brigades. Also you seem to completely neglect the factor that PRC cannot prepair its offensive plannings without beeing spotted in the USA or Taiwan, and therefore ROCA would be in allert level and it deployment from the peace time level would really likely to chance to something that we can only speculate...

And I believe that ROCA planners are sensible, common human beeings with really basics of strategy and leadership in mind.
You seem to want think all sort of excuses why ROCA would keep lesser troops in the actual landing areas, where as I see no logic of those. ROCA knows where are the all possiple landing sites to land sizable forces. It knows the capacity of PLANs marines and their limits. So it knows that PLAN needs to focus its forces to gain the upper hand as if it would dispearse, the small size of its Ambh. fleet would mean that dispearsed units would be in really small size.
People usually stare Amph. ships by the solely figurical point of wiev..."it can carry 200 troops or this much tonnage" while they seems to ignore what 200 troops means. Two companies.
The current ammount PLANs landing ships can deploy roughly 6250 troops by counting in numbers, eq. mere brigade of troops

So do you really think that inspite these known factors, ROCA would want to stay paralyzed and just waiting the invaision with their pants on the knees by tieing its troops so that PLA planners could anticipate it.

Few golden rules of basic military leadership:
1. Keep the innovative
2. Dont tie you forces so that enemy can predict it and exploit it.

The ROCAF is in an equally poor position. Should the PLAAF hit any major storage of AAMs for F-16s or launch any thing significant against the Mirage airbases the ROCAF would be rendered almost completely useless in the battle.

To base your entire strategy for one or three lucky shots? I dont think so. PLAAF lack that sort of precission to really go for that.
China currently has the ability to deny Taiwan use of its own airspace. Denying it in the sea is just as possible.

IMO, PLAAF has great change to challenge the Taiwan air force over air dominance, but their forces (if counted by the ammount of current (4th) generation aircrafts, and assorted equipments) are just too par to predict what would happen. PLAAF still lacks the cruicial force multipliers that would really need to be there so that we could automatically assume PLA airsuperiority.
In sea, thats completely bollocks. PLANs subforce can give grey hairs to ROCN, (but ROCNs ASW capacity migth even have better changes against it than PLAN has against the two odd subs of Taiwan fleet)
but its surface component is still (despite all the fancy new toys) taking baby steps of what is fleet operations in blue water. People tend to forget that the distances to Taiwan aren't in the limits of basic coastal defences, despite it looks to be so near in the map book.
To actively deploy a naval force against Taiwan and to achive something with in it requires a fleet that fully knows to operate in long periods of out side the homeport and have fully integrated and incorporated leadership in the sea. As these matters have just appeared as 'ways of the future' in the sparse texture that we actually know about PLANs doctrines, I assume (as usual with any navy) that it takes atleast one generation before its achieved.

My thought is that China denies Taiwan the use of its own airspace by using ARMs like the Krypton and YJ-91 to remove any significant air defenses, and striking airbases then proceeding to take out weapons depots so that even should any aircraft take off they will be unable to fight as effectively.

Killing large numbers of pilots would also achieve a great victory. Without a presence in the air a ground assault against any amphibious force would be doomed to failure. ROCA positions could be bombed and pushed back, special ops forces could play havoc with supply lines and deployments, and air patrols over major Taiwanese cities would be imposing politically.

My scenario envisions a swift and sudden destruction of the Taiwanese military strength and establishment of an invasion front. China will then offer peace on the condition of reunification and wait. They'll build up forces to a good 100,000 troops over a few days and make clear that it's reunification or conquest.

well you scenario depends too much of favorable luck and change, overexagerate the PLAs possiplity to conduct its cruicial parts, as well as giving too much on stage to be used with SOW units and most importantly, making wishfull thinking based on the general morale and politics of Taiwanese people, and thats the main reason why I dont want to comment on its succes.
I didnt come to play wargames, just to state that PLA cannot conduct conventional invasion of Taiwan, within the reach of accectable risk that it would posess to whole PLAs existance as modern armed force.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
You seems to stick with the mass numbers of troops while they tell you nothing yet. More important are the units where the troops are assigned it, corps, divisions and brigades. Also you seem to completely neglect the factor that PRC cannot prepair its offensive plannings without beeing spotted in the USA or Taiwan, and therefore ROCA would be in allert level and it deployment from the peace time level would really likely to chance to something that we can only speculate...

How come they can't without being spotted? Can they really spot them before they launch an airstrike or airlift troops? They would be able to spot the movement of their large amphibious ships, which is really why I mention Zubrs. Howevers, there are amphibious ships in the East Sea Fleet, which is going to be fairly close to Taiwan.

The East Sea Fleet has enough amphibious ships, not Zubrs, to deploy about 5300 troops and 84 tanks in one landing. Let's throw in the IL-76s and you get about 7960, nearly 8,000.

This is one landing. In a day that number would become 24,000 troops with 252 tanks. That's the capability just considering China's less advanced amphibious fleet and Il-76s. Throw in helicopters, Y-8s, Y-7s, and Y-5s and the number can grow significantly.

When considering these closer assets it is not too difficult to see the numbers approaching 50,000 in a day, if not more.

I'm not saying that would be exactly how it would happen, but merely that they have the capability to do it.

And I believe that ROCA planners are sensible, common human beeings with really basics of strategy and leadership in mind.
You seem to want think all sort of excuses why ROCA would keep lesser troops in the actual landing areas, where as I see no logic of those. ROCA knows where are the all possiple landing sites to land sizable forces. It knows the capacity of PLANs marines and their limits. So it knows that PLAN needs to focus its forces to gain the upper hand as if it would dispearse, the small size of its Ambh. fleet would mean that dispearsed units would be in really small size.

Any landing site is "possible" you're likely meaning to say which landing site is probable. By that it likely means Taiwan will not consider much of the central Taiwanese coast to be likely and make any significant effort to deploy numbers there. Greater emphasis would probably be put on the Northern and Southern tips where conditions would be far more favorable to a landing.

People usually stare Amph. ships by the solely figurical point of wiev..."it can carry 200 troops or this much tonnage" while they seems to ignore what 200 troops means. Two companies.
The current ammount PLANs landing ships can deploy roughly 6250 troops by counting in numbers, eq. mere brigade of troops

So do you really think that inspite these known factors, ROCA would want to stay paralyzed and just waiting the invaision with their pants on the knees by tieing its troops so that PLA planners could anticipate it.

I'm saying that they may think they have all the cards, but don't. They may think like you, that any force deployed would be easily predicted landing at either site A, B, or C. They would then predict that X number of troops will be landed at any time. Using this, as you do, they may assume an attack would be effectively repelled by a single division each at sites A, B, and C. However, what if the PLA decides to land somewhere else, where it was thought they couldn't launch an effective attack? Much like in D-Day and Operation Husky, where airborne troops were deployed ahead of the landing to secure the forward positions, a landing of airborne troops would play a similar role here.

5,000 airborne troops secure positions a few dozen miles inland, possibly any air strips. Right before amphibious troops move onto the shores. For surprise Zubrs are really a good bet, but 071s would be equally capable of achieving surprise. Which is why I said Taiwan would stand no chance when Zubrs are acquired.

To base your entire strategy for one or three lucky shots? I dont think so. PLAAF lack that sort of precission to really go for that.

I brought up LS-6 for a reason. However, after damaging the runways a general strafing run and use of dumb-bombs could achieve the desired objective. Most likely the attacks would be at bases holding F-16s or Mirages so as to incapacitate them as much as possible.

IMO, PLAAF has great change to challenge the Taiwan air force over air dominance, but their forces (if counted by the ammount of current (4th) generation aircrafts, and assorted equipments) are just too par to predict what would happen. PLAAF still lacks the cruicial force multipliers that would really need to be there so that we could automatically assume PLA airsuperiority.

Again, you're ignoring the crucial side of this. You seem to emphasize a lot on force-against-force, rather than thinking in real tactical ways. Kryptons and YJ-91s can be fired very close, if not inside, the PLA's air defense umbrella. LS-6s could be launched from within the Chinese mainland. LACMs could be launched well within China. Ballistic missiles could be launched without any real warning at all and inside the Chinese mainland. Weapons being launched from where air-interdiction is horribly unlikely.

Taiwan would lose its early-warning capabilities within the first few minutes of the conflict. They would also likely lose much of their air defense network. Attacks on major military HQs and airbases would also be used to damage and impede Taiwanese forces before any landing of troops.

In sea, thats completely bollocks. PLANs subforce can give grey hairs to ROCN, (but ROCNs ASW capacity migth even have better changes against it than PLAN has against the two odd subs of Taiwan fleet)

Is ROCN's ASW sufficient to detect Kilo, Song, and Yuan class subs?

You might be right about Taiwan's subs. I doubt the PLAN will be able to do anything about them before they sink trying to leave port.

but its surface component is still (despite all the fancy new toys) taking baby steps of what is fleet operations in blue water. People tend to forget that the distances to Taiwan aren't in the limits of basic coastal defences, despite it looks to be so near in the map book.

To actively deploy a naval force against Taiwan and to achive something with in it requires a fleet that fully knows to operate in long periods of out side the homeport and have fully integrated and incorporated leadership in the sea. As these matters have just appeared as 'ways of the future' in the sparse texture that we actually know about PLANs doctrines, I assume (as usual with any navy) that it takes atleast one generation before its achieved.

I'm referring to the simple fact that they have enough of an arsenal of anti-ship missiles to sink the ROCN from China's coast. Not to mention the air-launched anti-ship capabilities. Hell Kryptons could be very potent weapons against Taiwan's Kidds.

well you scenario depends too much of favorable luck and change, overexagerate the PLAs possiplity to conduct its cruicial parts, as well as giving too much on stage to be used with SOW units and most importantly, making wishfull thinking based on the general morale and politics of Taiwanese people, and thats the main reason why I dont want to comment on its succes.

It's not wishful thinking. The fact is, a compulsory service is usually not as capable as a volunteer service. The most important question with any scenario is conditions. If the war is a result of a declaration of independence by Taiwan in some capacity, then public support will be far lower than if it was unprovoked. In a compulsory service, if the war is a result of a Taiwanese declaration of independence, there might be thousands of troops or more who simply drop their weapons and don't fight. Many may not answer the call for reserves. Some generals might just defect to China. Rapid successes in the air and sea, as well as capturing of Penghu, Matsu, and Spratly Island, and a complete cutoff of Kinmen would seriously erode morale.

Facing the threat of Chinese invasion within hours of a declaration of independence may convince many in the military and civilian population that there is no choice but negotiation.

Under my scenario the attacks would be almost entirely, if not entirely, against military targets. A massive military loss with minimal civilian casualties in a war provoked by an unpopular Taiwanese government. Not many people would gladly answer their call to duty under such conditions.

I didnt come to play wargames, just to state that PLA cannot conduct conventional invasion of Taiwan, within the reach of accectable risk that it would posess to whole PLAs existance as modern armed force.

I wasn't referring to a full-fledged invasion if you were paying attention. I was referring to establishing a defensible beachhead on Taiwan and achieving dominance in air and sea. A landing in the central coast would allow China to split Taiwan right down the middle too. It would be plenty to force Taiwan's surrender, without having to launch a true invasion.
 

Gollevainen

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Registered Member
How come they can't without being spotted?
Thing called a military Inteligent comes firstly to my mind. Thougth I cannot say much precise about this, a landing would require lot of movment in PLAs side, even if it would be done simply by garrisioned special troops. And that sort of movments always get registerd. If not by Taiwan, then by US.

The East Sea Fleet has enough amphibious ships, not Zubrs, to deploy about 5300 troops and 84 tanks in one landing. Let's throw in the IL-76s and you get about 7960, nearly 8,000.

East Sea fleat can deliver a mere brigade when counted on pure man power. (i dont grasp how the 84 tanks gets there, thougth? Fly with dragons??)

Those figures counts only manpower. All modern combat units require trucks, trucks and more trucs, not to mention heavy engineering equipment to support such a difficoult mannouvre. And then comes the artillery element, that whitout no military unit cannot be expected to anything in the battle field. Do you know how much troops in brigade are the ones that count in the fighting e.q would be any use if we count only manpower without the heavy equipment modern units needs to function?

So nearly 8,000 men without any heavy equipment starts to seem awfully low when you can finnally get your mind out of the plain numbers and start thinking about military units, We would advance in this discussion.

This is one landing. In a day that number would become 24,000 troops with 252 tanks. That's the capability just considering China's less advanced amphibious fleet and Il-76s. Throw in helicopters, Y-8s, Y-7s, and Y-5s and the number can grow significantly.

??? So memory doesent work that well....Like I said in one of the previous replies, Chinese capacity allows similar sized landing as in the first wave to take place after 20 or so hours the intial landing. In what realms mathemathics, the figures can TRIPLE in size????

Any landing site is "possible" you're likely meaning to say which landing site is probable. By that it likely means Taiwan will not consider much of the central Taiwanese coast to be likely and make any significant effort to deploy numbers there. Greater emphasis would probably be put on the Northern and Southern tips where conditions would be far more favorable to a landing.

As to get even mediocore force onshore in the intial landing, PLA needs to deploy all its ampfious capacity to do that. So that means that there would be no ability to step the invasion, nor it would allow the seccond tier to wait in the near by to land when ever the first wave commander needs reserves.

So to exploit the first wave assault, the amph. fleet needs to go back to the bases as fast as possiple, reload and roll back again. As we know that the chinese fleet isent anyway near of USN 20kt standard, PLA simply has no luxury to land anywere else, but to the point where there is fastes way to deliver re-enforcments to the landing.

I'm saying that they may think they have all the cards, but don't. They may think like you, that any force deployed would be easily predicted landing at either site A, B, or C. They would then predict that X number of troops will be landed at any time. Using this, as you do, they may assume an attack would be effectively repelled by a single division each at sites A, B, and C. However, what if the PLA decides to land somewhere else, where it was thought they couldn't launch an effective attack? Much like in D-Day and Operation Husky, where airborne troops were deployed ahead of the landing to secure the forward positions, a landing of airborne troops would play a similar role here.

well in the case, If they would think like I think, and I think as I have thougth to think in Finnish army, that place a brigade to A,B, and C and keep three brigades in the D wich is the point where it would be fastes way to deploy into all three intial landing spots, where ever the X forces land.
And as those are the most basics of military leadership, We cannot in any point think that the ROCA WOULDN'T think that way. I refuse to accept that an artillery corporal can be the suprime strategical mind...the history has well presented that;) :D

And I would you to read a bit about Soviet airborne troops (as there isent any of PLAs, but PLA seems to follow step by step old soviet models) and then consider the usage of those units, theyr prestige and value as a real factor in the fighting.


Again, you're ignoring the crucial side of this. You seem to emphasize a lot on force-against-force, rather than thinking in real tactical ways. Kryptons and YJ-91s can be fired very close, if not inside, the PLA's air defense umbrella. LS-6s could be launched from within the Chinese mainland. LACMs could be launched well within China. Ballistic missiles could be launched without any real warning at all and inside the Chinese mainland. Weapons being launched from where air-interdiction is horribly unlikely
.

No,no and no. I think about force by force way becouse its the sole possiple aspect to look this. You want to see it (as many chinese red flagwavers before you) as weapon by weapon level and seek out some superficial supermacy of sinlge weapon type and then manifest PLA as winner in the particular field, completely ignoring to look the capacities of the forces and units that uses the weapons.

Example, in tank battle, it really doesent count wheter you have Merkava and the other has Leo2, the one that matters that you have three tank platoon and the opponent has four tanks in the platoon.

So dare not to say that I dont look the tactical aspect of it....

And Ballistic missiles. What about them? Are you planning to use WMDs? If not, I they mean nothing more than if a single artillery regiment of infantry division makes a good days shooting. How many wars have been won by that? I suggest you and others living in the ballistic missle hype to really study about the effects of artilleryfire and ammount tubes that it needs to gain the results that its famous, then count the ammount of TNT that has been fired and then count as much TNT your miracle weapons carry....and only after that come throw them in....


I'm referring to the simple fact that they have enough of an arsenal of anti-ship missiles to sink the ROCN from China's coast. Not to mention the air-launched anti-ship capabilities. Hell Kryptons could be very potent weapons against Taiwan's Kidds.

I know that you are. After all, if taking account my experience with chinese kids, that is the sole factor of naval warfare that really counts. Yippiee PLAN supermacy will smash its all opponents.

Well gues what? Ever heard of ECM
And if you throw that bold statement, I want you now to present me all the elements and units that in PLANs disposition can detect/aim/and fire SSMs into over 200 Km distances, keep their hit propapility over 90% under ROCN counter meassures and by that sink all ROCN ships from chinese coast...

I wasn't referring to a full-fledged invasion if you were paying attention. I was referring to establishing a defensible beachhead on Taiwan and achieving dominance in air and sea. A landing in the central coast would allow China to split Taiwan right down the middle too. It would be plenty to force Taiwan's surrender, without having to launch a true invasion

Yeas, I remember, You were refering into some imaginary magic assault by chinese forces done by elements and equipment that it doesent posess and doesent even have capacity to conduct that.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
Rather than continuing this little discussion.

In the context of a war with Taiwan I've favorably considered three possible scenarios.

The first is the most daring and difficult. It would require a substantial amount of coordination between commanders and significant pre-planning, though it could easily be carried out with not a single warning.

It would consists of waves of aircraft and significant naval attacks followed by a major ground incursion. All of this would be aimed at forcing a political resolution to the conflict, rather than requiring a full-scale war.

The first air attacks would be from ballistic missiles. The missiles would target airbases, army bases, radar sites, and naval ports. Particular attention would be given to airbases. At least ten missiles would be launched at each airbase. The aim here being to make it impossible for any air-intercepts of the incoming strike aircraft.

The second attack would be launched about the midway point of the Taiwan Straits and consist of ARM attacks. About a squadron of Su-30MKKs and another of JH-7s each armed with two ARMs each would target the dozen or so long-range radar sites and radar sites for air defense systems. There would also be possible engagement of Kidds. At least two ARMs would be aimed at each site. Removing these sites would allow the next attacks to be conducted without warning and in complete safety.

After this the third attack would come from LS-6 glide bombs, launched from any viable launching platform in theater, likely two to four bombseach. They would be using auxiliary power so they could be launched from about 100 miles inland and just about outside or slightly inside detection range of Taiwanese long-range radar. Each bomb would be targeted dominantly at air defense systems like the Patriot. There would also be targeted towards known storage facilities for weapons, spare parts, and other crucial supplies for the military. Any other targets not destroyed like radar sites would also be hit. Several hundred bombs would likely be involved in this strike.

The fourth attack would come from a few dozen long-range LACMs. These would target remaining sites and begin targeting major military HQs.

After this the next attacks will be done largely LGBs or dumb bombs against major military installations and large troops deployments. Short-range, more mobile air defense would also be targeted.

The moment the attack begins fighters would be scrambled to escort strike aircraft and then move over Taiwan to intercept any aircraft that take off. This would be as many as four squadrons and as little as two squadrons of aircraft, all equipped with long-range ARAAMs.

KJ-2000s and Y-8 AWACs would take off at the beginning to help coordinate the entire attack.

Il-76MDs would take off near the beginning of the attack or a bit before and move quickly to drop arounhd 2,500 troops on Taiwan.

The sea attacks would be launched largely in conjunction with air attacks.

On the eastern coast Yuan-class subs and 093s will be deployed to sink shipping attempting to supply Taiwan. As many as four subs would operate in the area at any time. This would be part of a wider blockade against Taiwan.

Soveremnys will launch their sunburn anti-ship missiles against Kidd destroyers and any other naval deployments. Other anti-ship missiles, launched from other ships or the air will also be used. The 8 or so Kilos in the East Sea Fleet will use their Klub-S missiles as well as torpedoes. Song class subs would move close to naval detachments and use torpedoes.

Air attacks would be used as well to enforce this attack. They would launch anti-ship missiles against any naval deployment. Emphasis would be given on the Kidds given their capacity to endanger the PLAAF's air superiority. Combined with ARM attacks, torpedoes attacks, Sunburns, and Klub-S missiles the Kidds would likely be unable to stop all of the incoming attacks. Two ARMs, four torpedoes, four Sunburns, four Klub-S missiles, and four air-launched anti-ship missiles sounds like a good minimum. That's at least 20 weapons aimed at each Kidd, some of these weapons travelling well over Mach 1, some being torpedoes, and with various different means of guidance. While possible to stop some of the attacks, the possibility that Taiwanese naval operators will be so experienced with the weapons to stop a mass attack of 80+ weapons is null. These are fairly recent acquisitions and being able to coordinate a major air defense with them without much experience is unlikely.

Other ships, less advanced than the Kidds, would ultimately stand little chance of survival. Use of 2208s operating on the coast against naval deployments on Taiwan would add more on to this attack.

The moment the attack begins, or perhaps a few hours before, the 052Cs and any amphibious assets deployed in the South Sea Fleet would begin moving towards Taiwan. In addition to the amphibious assets in the East See Fleet, they would altogether be able to mount a single landing upwards of 10,000 troops. With the possible inclusion of Zubrs and 071s that numbers gets to more like 15,000.

052Cs would deploy in the Taiwan Straits with two Soveremnys near each tip of the island. The rest of the fleet would divided between these areas. Altogether this would, with the 093s and Yuan on the eastern coast be a naval blockade enforceable for several weeks.

Attacks on land would be also launched almost at the same time.

The intial land attacks would be against outwardly-held areas. Matsu and Spratly island holdings of Taiwan would be seized in the first few minutes of the attack. Kinmen would be blockaded by sea and air, with all traffic to the area ceased and a massive artillery, air, and naval bombardment of the island ensuing. Though, the Chinese will offer to evacuate any non-military personnel.

Seizure of the Spratly islands would likely be done with some limited action by the South Sea Fleet. Possibly receiving support from 052Cs and maybe using one 071 as well as some other amphibious assets. An air landing could also be used to seize the islands from Taiwan.

Matsu would be seized first of all to remove the air defense batteries on the island. Artillery attacks against Taiwanese positions on the islands and air strikes would be used to soften up the forces.

The Penghu islands would be the last to be seized. This would be done before an attack on the main island or at the same time. Likely consisting largely or airborne troops with significant air support, army targets will be neutralized, though efforts will be made to secure the airstrips on the island. Upon seizing the island aircraft, likely J-10s and JH-7s would be landed on the airstrip. Then several SAM batteries will deployed to the island.

The invasion of the Taiwanese main island would then be launched. Thousands of troops from IL-76MDs will be dropped to the western coast, likely in a central coastal area. An amphibious invasion would be launched on the mudflats at about the same time. Due to the surprise nature and, choosing a particularly undefended landing point, the PLA forces will likely secure their positions almost right after landing. Paratroopers will already be in the process of securing some towns and airbases. The intial attack will be small, likely only around 5,000 troops. Half will be paratroopers, the other half will be marines. Depending on what the PLAN has at the time the numbers could be larger for amphibious forces. If 071s and Zubrs are equipped by PLAN at the time, the numbers for Marines could be closer to 5,000 than 2,500. However, right now 2,500 marines is current reasonable.

1,000 special forces at least will be operating on the island in the beginning of the conflict, many moved in by subs and helicopters. They would note movements by the ROCA to highlight targets for destruction by the PLAAF and/or PLAN. They would also, at the beginning of the attack, seize important airfields, army bases, and naval ports. Possibly even attempt seizing a few ROCN ships, like the Kidds.

In the next few hours amphibious assets redirected from the South Sea Fleet, some from the East Sea Fleet, and possibly North Sea Fleet will be moved into position. They will reinforce the 2,500 to 5,000 troops with another 15,000. In the middle of this, assuming 071 and Zubrs are in service, another 5,000 may quickly be moved in. From the air Y-8s, Y-7s, Y-5s, and helicopters will ad even more troops. At least 10,000 will be moved to the positions from the air in the following hours. Eventually all 30,000 of the airborne troops and 14,000 Marines should be moved onto Taiwan by the end of the day. At least 50,000 troops in all be on Taiwan proper at the end of the day. In the next few days as other troops from the RRUs become prepared a massive shipment of troops will be made. In as as many as three days China could have 250,000 or more troops on Taiwan or heading to Taiwan.

With complete air and naval dominance over Taiwan and a major force stationed on Taiwan's mainland, as well as essentially holding tens of thousands of troops on Kinmen hostage, Taiwanese leaders would be faced with a major political crisis, especially assuming this is a result of a declaration of independence. The complete destruction of the ROCAF and ROCN will keep the US from intervening in any capacity for Taiwan's sake.

Facing a desperate situation Taiwanese university students may begin protesting the government for bringing the wrath of the mainland on them. Taiwan's economy would be devastated and many soldiers in the ROCA, only in the force because it's required, would throw down arms and leave, unwilling to fight what they can see is a losing battle against fellow Chinese. Some in the ROCA may have leanings towards reunification and switch sides to the Chinese. With 50,000 ROCA troops already lost as a result of the seizure or isolation of their positions, the 170,000 troops would quickly be reduced. The ROCA could see it's force go down to 100,000 troops or maybe even lower. Many called for duty would simply refuse the call. The KMT, TSU, and PFP, would attack the DPP for rashly endangering Taiwan and its people.

Eventually Taiwan would have to concede to the Chinese or risk not only foreign invasion, but civil war.

I'll admit that's the most outlandish one, but it is well within China's capabilities right now even excluding some of the weapons I mentioned.

The second scenario I have envisioned would consist partly of this, mainly the seizure or outward territories of Taiwan.

Matsu would be seized and the Spratly Island holdings. Kinmen would be blockaded heavily and perhaps invaded. Penghu would also be seized and aircraft landed on the islands.

The airbase on Penghu is apparently capable of stationing some air forces, perhaps a squadron.

This attack would likely be made to prevent any major loss by the PLA and keep Taiwan's western systems in tact for future inspection by China.

The seizure of Penghu would be particularly crucial. Basing a few SAM batteries on the islands as well as a squadron of fighters could give China air dominance over the southern half of Taiwan. Ships could be placed to port on the island and launch attacks against the ROCN. Artillery could be placed on the islands and launch barrages against the main island.

This would also be a nice place to stage an invasion. China could build up a large ground force on the island and station large amphibious ships with 052Cs and Soveremnys serving as support and defense.

This would also involve an extended air and naval campaign, one geared more at slowly eroding Taiwan's defensive capabilites. Chinese AWACS would operate over the Taiwan Straits every hour of the day.

Penghu would also be crucial politically. The southern region being the main stronghold of the DPP would be a serious blow to morale for backers of independence. Air and naval dominance of the independence stronghold and DPP's main backers could bring significant pressure on the leaders of Taiwan.

In this scenario no actual major attacks against the main island would be launched. There would still be a blockade over all of Taiwan and the seizures of outlying islands, but much of the island would be left in tact. The PLAAF would, however, conduct air patrols over the southern tip to serve as a constant threat.

Use of ballistic missiles would also likely be limited or nonexistant. I think this is the most favorable and likely scenario for China in Taiwan right now.

The third scenario really doesn't have to be exclusionary to the other two, however, it would be a substantially different first strike.

The PLAAF would modify some 800 J-6s, 100 old J-7s, possibly 200 J-5s, into UAVs. Harpy drones could also be included in this massive attack. KJ-2000s and Y-8 AWACS would be used with other electronic warfare attacks to make this appear to be a mass air attack. ROCAF fighters would inevitably be scrambled to intercept the massive attack of 1100 aircraft, maybe appear to be more with electronic warfare.

This would be a trap to catch much of the ROCAF off of the airstrips. As soon as a large number of the ROCAF is engaging the drones, Su-30MKKs, J-10s, and J-11s will take off to conduct air intercepts. It would also be used to occupy SAM systems. The ROCAF fighters, already engaging the drones and exhausting much of their weapons would then be targeted by the PLAAF's actual fighters.

While this is going on an air strike will be launched by H-6s and JH-7s against SAM sites, airbases, and the navy. Some naval strikes could also be possible. The ROCAF, still trying to fight their way out of the PLAAF's trap will be unable to stop this other strike. ARMs, ASMs, guided and unguided bombs would strike major military installations dealing with the massive ongoing air battle.

Also, while the drone are being used as a lure they will also be used in attacks. While possibly they may engage ROCAF fighters in suicide strikes they'll more likely be used like cruise missiles to strike other military installations. This will likely be hundreds of suicide strikes by drones.

Also, with the ROCAF caught off their airbases ballistic missile strikes on the runways could be used to trap the ROCAF fighters in the air against the PLAAF.

After this initial strike, what happens is variable and could be similar to the other two scenarios. However, the attack could leave much of the ROCAF crashing into the Taiwan Straits and open the way for a massive air strike.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
well As im also tired to continue, I say only that your plan seems to be workable....in some hypothetical simulator where you can set the opponets AI to near zero and make sure that it lacks all the elements of basic strategical innovativenes...
It presents what China should try to do, but speaks nothing about the actual change to succes to do so.
And as strong advocate of objectiveness and anti-blue-eyesness I dont base much about that sort of wishfull thinking
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
None of the scenarios really give Taiwan much room for being innovative. There are uncertain factors, like possible airstrips inside Taiwan's mountains, Well-hidden SAM sites, dummy airbases and aircraft, but I'm not sure if Taiwan would have much warning to implement anything along this path.

Taiwan is plagued by a general lack of strategic variety. They've been preparing for the same war for the last few decades.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
None of the scenarios really give Taiwan much room for being innovative. There are uncertain factors, like possible airstrips inside Taiwan's mountains, Well-hidden SAM sites, dummy airbases and aircraft, but I'm not sure if Taiwan would have much warning to implement anything along this path.

Taiwan is plagued by a general lack of strategic variety. They've been preparing for the same war for the last few decades.

True Taiwan doesn't have the option of being particularly innovative in the scenarios that you drew up, essentially the option is to either resist or just give up without a fight because they don't want to fight their "brothers". These so-called outdated strategies still work because unless Taiwan simply surrenders, China has to get large numbers of boots on the ground, in which case Taiwan has a fighting chance.

Essentially that's where the immediate success of the plan depends on; the will of the Taiwanese people to resist. It would be presumptuous for me to attempt to speak for all the people of the island, because my experience stems from my adolescent and high school year over there, discussing the issue with friends, teachers, etc. The general mentality tends to be that ideally neither side would do anything to provoke a war, but if anything should happen they would do all they could to resist an invasion, regardless of who started it.

Granted, this may possibly represent a *tiny* portion of the people, though looking at the proportion of people who consider themselves "Taiwanese" rather than "Chinese", I think you give the Taiwanese too little credit for sticking up for themselves. Again, these opposite assumptions that we hold can't be seen unless the situation (heaven-forbid) actually occurs.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
Identifying themselves with where they live isn't the same thing. People from New York might identify themselves as New Yorkers or people from Texas identify themselves as Texans, but that doesn't meant they don't have some greater loyalty. Hell, many who identify themselves as Texans also are the most patriotic of Americans.

However, in every scenario I gave, only the first is really affected by the will to fight.

The other two can be successful without any kind of invasion of the main island. In a way they might be more effective. A Chinese presence would be something Taiwan could fight.

However, with their aircraft destroyed or poorly armed, their navy at the bottom of the sea, and surrounded by the PLAN with constant air patrols by the PLAAF in their skies, an invasion may not be needed to force a surrender.

My thoughts go somewhat with the recent war in Lebanon. The only difference, is China has no real enemy when it comes to Taiwan. No one's going to bloody themselves for Taiwan like Lebanon. Still, the sheer gravity of the attack and it's crippling effect forced an international agreement. In the end, any international agreement as a result of an attack on Taiwan would have to move towards reunification.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
However, with their aircraft destroyed or poorly armed, their navy at the bottom of the sea, and surrounded by the PLAN with constant air patrols by the PLAAF in their skies, an invasion may not be needed to force a surrender.
It would take quite a while for attrition, IMHO, for PLA operations to achieve this. Many think somehow it will be achieved in a few days...I believe it would take at least a few weeks, if not longer, if no help were forthcoming to the ROC.

The only difference, is China has no real enemy when it comes to Taiwan. No one's going to bloody themselves for Taiwan like Lebanon. In the end, any international agreement as a result of an attack on Taiwan would have to move towards reunification.
Again, I would not count on this, and I do not believe the Chinese planners can either. I certainly believe, that if the PRC attacked the ROC with the idea of conquest-short of it being in response to ROC blatant attacks, that the United States would intervene. If the ROC holds out for several weeks, which I believe them capable of even if they do use up US armament, then the US would be there long before then.

The F-22s are not being moved to Okinawa for fun. I believe they are not only a signal to N. Korea over the current nuclear crisis, but also to the PRC regarding Taiwan. The same is true for the SSNs being stationed in the Western Pacific, any SSGNs, and B-2s. All of that is a pretty strong sign from the US IMHO and must be taken into account in any scenario regarding the ROC.

It may well be that with a different administration in Washington that this might change and if it does, then such a scenario may be more likely. We shall just have to wait and see...and I am sure that the PRC will in any case should they be compelled to act.
 
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