North Korea says nuclear test successful

SampanViking

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I wonder if refugees would be such a problem for China and South Korea. They could afford to look after them, even if they'd prefer North Korea not collapse.

Oh Fu, Fu, Fu - you dont get it do you:(

The collapse of the Kim Regime (itself capable of generating final acts of rage and desperation) does not mean the collapse of every power structure in the land.

NK is such an armed camp and with such a militarised mindset that the overnight emergence of several regional warlords; former Generals with nowhere to go and nothing to lose, squabbling over the spoils is almost guaranteed. Now these spoils include nuclear weapons.

Such a situation would make places like Somalia and Afghanistain look like Seaside Holiday Camps. Sure the bigs boys are capable of going in and restoring order, but would they be prepared to pay the very high price?
 
D

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Such a situation would make places like Somalia and Afghanistain look like Seaside Holiday Camps. Sure the bigs boys are capable of going in and restoring order, but would they be prepared to pay the very high price?

Well, obviously if they just sat back and let random figures take power, things would be very bad. Then again if they rolled in before anyone could think about setting themselves up they could probably pull it off, China especially. Besides, it's not like anyone could stop North Korea from collapsing - if it collapses it will collapse.
 

SampanViking

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Well, obviously if they just sat back and let random figures take power, things would be very bad. Then again if they rolled in before anyone could think about setting themselves up they could probably pull it off, China especially. Besides, it's not like anyone could stop North Korea from collapsing - if it collapses it will collapse

Now what exactly is it that you beleive would constitute the collapse of Kims regime?

Simply this, the loss of the confidence of his military leaders. NK can easily put down any civilian insurrection as long as the military is loyal. If it seems as though troops may mutiny, then the Generals will step in and take matters into their own hands, maybe forming a junta, but more likely; as they will have no time to organise, just grabbing what they can in order to enhance their own negotiating position.

The point being here, that there would be no window of opportunity between Kims fall and the Warlords rise, as it would be the latter precipitating the former.
 
D

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Now what exactly is it that you beleive would constitute the collapse of Kims regime?

Cessation of food/energy supplies, hard currency drying up and what little economy there is collapsing, etc. Could be many things.

Besides, talk of the regime collapsing is premature. The current issue is how to deal with North Korea, and I think given that even Beijing can't control Pyongyang a firm line has to be taken. Otherwise the UN/global powers will be shown to be as weak as the League of Nations, resulting in open-season for wannabe nuclear powers and making other worried countries to follow suit.

We can do something now, or end up with dozens of nuclear countries, with it taking just one psychopath to press the big red button in the moronic belief he can defeat his enemies before they can respond. It might take 30 or 50 years to get there - but we shouldn't even start to go down that road. A cop-out now will just make the world a dangerous place for future generations.
 
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Burhead

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Do you think the Japanese and South Koreans will go nuclear to counter this? Also what do you think about the Japanese removing the article that limits its military capabilities? Personally I'm in a 100% in favor of both nations going nuclear and Japan returning to a military power that can deploy outside of Japan.
 

Spike

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Two sources i read states it measured 3.5 and 6 on Richter Scale. I cannot see North Korean government would collapse in the short term, it has survived many problems, previously.

Yes, originally CNN stated that US and Japanese seismologists had not confirmed any tremors, but the South Koreans have dectected the test (at 3.5 I believe) and have stated that it did not result from any natural seismic activity.

Well, obviously if they just sat back and let random figures take power, things would be very bad. Then again if they rolled in before anyone could think about setting themselves up they could probably pull it off, China especially. Besides, it's not like anyone could stop North Korea from collapsing - if it collapses it will collapse.

Any one going into a 'collapsed' North Korea to restore order will face the threat of nuclear weapons and other nasty surprises. Leftover generals in the NK regime will do everything in their power to prevent themselves from being arrested by foreign troops and facing criminal tribunals for crimes against humanity, or getting lynched by their own starving and angry peasants.
 
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GreatYuran

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Due to the decrepit state of the North Korean economy, its very likely that inactivity will simply topple the country itself. Having said that, North Korea has managed to pull through some incredible hardships in the past. Overall if inactivity is taken, the North Koreans will stick to their principle of "Juche" or self reliance and try to toughen out any international sanctions that might come at them.

During this time, the world can expect that they will turn out more nukes (if last night's test was indeed a true nuclear test). This would unacceptable as the nuclear weapons will severely unbalance the power in the region as well as serve as a blackmail object.

Military intervention by the United States is definatly out of the equation as the US troops are tied up in the Middle East. However a massive aerial campaign might be plausible if South Korea can deal with the retaliation the North has set up against them (The north has tons of artillery and missiles aimed at Soeul, less than 100 miles from the Northern border).

Finally, does anyone believe this is a true nuclear test? Some sources estimate a yield of less than one kiloton even going as low as .5 kT (the first US Atomic bomb at Trinity was 20 kT and India's first test was 12 kT). A blast of less than one kT can be realistically reached by conventional means. And you have take notice how the North Koreans explicitly stated "no radioactive leak" which would be a major fingerprint of a nuclear weapons test. I remeber reading reports of how American U-2s were able to detect radioactive residue from Chinese Underground tests in the 70s and 80s, I highly doubt the North Koreans have already perfected containment technology.

If indeed a true weapon has been fashioned, I believe that the Chinese and South Koreans should secure their borders and allow a massive air campaign consisting of Precision strikes against key military installations followed by a Carpet campaign on all key industrial (what is left of their industry) cities. **************

Let's not be using that qoute my friend. It can spark some really nasty flammers.
 
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Spike

Banned Idiot
Article from Asia Times:

How North Korea bungled its nuclear timing
By Donald Kirk
October 10, 2006

SEOUL - North Korea's nuclear test has altered the landscape of alliances and enmities in East Asia, suddenly putting Japan in common cause with two terrible foes, China and South Korea.

If Kim Jong-il deliberately timed the test to coincide with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's visit first to Beijing and then to Seoul, he may have dreadfully miscalculated. The leaders of all three countries could hardly agree more - the test is a "provocation" and they have to act together to do something about it.

The verbiage from South Korea was startling. There, after his summit on Monday with Abe, was President Roh Moo-hyun declaring that South Korea would find it "increasingly difficult to stick by its engagement policy" with North Korea. Is Roh really prepared, however, to do away with nearly 10 years of efforts at reconciliation with North Korea?

The answer, in the view of increasingly restive conservatives in South Korea, is that Roh's presidency has been a failure and that the "sunshine policy" initiated his predecessor, Kim Dae-jung, has failed to deliver on any of its promises.

For all the strong words, though, the future of engagement now rests on whether Roh is willing to suspend a bundle of economic and social programs that have proliferated in recent years.

And are South Korea and China ready to advocate economic sanctions against North Korea after having strenuously opposed them even after North Korea test-fired seven missiles in early July?

Shinzo Abe, at a final press conference here before returning to Tokyo, called on the "international community" to adopt "harsher measures" - an implicit rebuke of the soft line that China and South Korea have been following.

By his manner and words, Abe conveyed the sense that the North Korean test, announced by Pyongyang's Korean Central News Agency shortly after he arrived in Seoul, had helped immensely in resolving deep differences between Japan and South Korea as well as China. "We saw eye to eye," he said flatly after his meeting with Roh.

No doubt about it, the news of the North Korean test came as a devastating blow to nearly a decade of efforts at North-South Korean reconciliation - and also as a huge loss of face for China, widely viewed as having pivotal influence in Pyongyang in view of North Korea's reliance on China for aid and trade.

China's response was that of betrayal by a trusted follower. Denunciation of the test as a "brazen" act suggested the vengeance that China might contemplate. How, Chinese leaders seemed to be asking, could Kim Jong-il treat us with such disrespect after all the aid we've been pouring into his dilapidated economy, including fuel, food and cash?

More than face was at stake. North Korea's nuclear test rekindled fears of a regional nuclear arms race, one in which Japan could threaten everyone else in the region, reviving memories of the days of Japanese empire beginning in the late 19th century.

There was no trace, however, in statements from Beijing or Seoul after the announcement of the test of the kind of anti-Japanese sentiment that has been reverberating through the headlines in the past few years.

North Korea's display of nuclear prowess "will bring about some new perspectives on regional security", said Park Young-ho, senior research fellow at the Korea Institute of National Unification. "Maybe Japan and even South Korea may have some temptation to develop nuclear weapons."

The contentious question of whether Abe would follow the lead of his predecessor, Junichiro Koizumi, in visiting Japan's Yasukuni shrine honoring Japan's war dead, including the war criminals who led the Japanese empire to conquest over China and Korea, was barely mentioned. And neither Roh nor Abe seemed to want to quarrel over those rocky islets in the East Sea/Sea of Japan that are known as Dokdo to the Koreans whose police occupy them, and as Takeshima to the Japanese who claim them.

The impression was that Abe, while hardly giving up his right to visit the shrine, much less yielding on Japanese claims to Dokdo/Takeshima, might put off a display of such overt nationalism in the interests of new-found friendship with China and South Korea.

Roh, who inherited the "sunshine policy" formulated by Kim Dae-jung, said his government would find it "increasingly difficult to stick to its engagement policy". While South Korea would not abandon its desire for peaceful dialogue, he said, "we may not continue to be patient and to yield to North Korea's demands". Roh's remarks reflected rising conservative pressure for his government to give up what are seen as leftist policies, and to consider closing down business and tourist programs.

While warning of possible "stern measures", however, Roh did not specify exactly what he might do. Options included suspension of permission for South Korean companies to operate in a special economic zone at Kaesong, across the line between the two Koreas about 40 miles north of Seoul, and to bar South Koreans from going on tours to the Mount Kumkang resort region in which South Korea's Hyundai group has invested about US$1 billion.

The North Korean test also seemed likely to bring South Korea closer to the United States after increasingly strained relations in which South Korea has opposed what was seen here as the "hard line" of the Bush administration ever since President George W Bush included North Korea in an "axis of evil" in 2001.

"Korea and the US will get closer to convergence in putting pressure on North Korea," said Kim Sung-han, professor at the Institute of Foreign Affairs and National Security, an adjunct of the foreign ministry. South Korea, he said, "might join the Proliferation Security Initiative" - a US-sponsored effort to get nations to band together in an effort to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. South Korea has so far refused to join PSI, preferring observer status at exercises.

Another option, said Kim, would be for the Seoul to "consider joint missile defense" with the US and possibly even Japan - a level of interdependence that the Roh government had previously opposed.

Yet another question is that of the basic US-Korean alliance. A South Korean spokesman reminded North Korea of the strength of that alliance in a critical period in US-Korean relations.

Roh seemed almost hurt as he spoke of the "common and broad approach" that he had forged with Bush during their meeting at the White House last month. Out of that meeting came a new "comprehensive" proposal for North Korea - on which the North never commented. Now, said Roh, that approach would have to change.

It's not clear if that approach offered anything new, but there's no doubt Roh's policy toward Washington will undergo revision if not transformation. One place to begin may be on the controversial plan for changing the agreement under which South Korean troops would remain under South Korean leadership in case of war rather than under a single US command. South Korean conservatives, including former defense ministers and army commanders, have zealously opposed the whole idea, seen as proof of Roh's leftist anti-Americanism.

In the aftermath of the nuclear test, anti-Americanism may be falling out of fashion in South Korea.
 
D

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Do you think the Japanese and South Koreans will go nuclear to counter this?

No, because at this point in time going nuclear wouldn't solve anything. If the North Koreans would use nuclear weapons with the US watching they'd do it if South Korea and Japan had them.

On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if Japan expedites reforms to its laws to allow the JSDF to participate in "collective defence", though that itself will still take time given the current position of the LDP's partner, New Komeito, on such reforms.

Any one going into a 'collapsed' North Korea to restore order will face the threat of nuclear weapons

What nuclear weapons would this be? North Korea has made a nuclear test in controlled conditions. Yet they don't have a credible means of deploying a nuclear bomb, let alone the technology to make a warhead. If you were talking 5-10 years down the line (with no sanctions to stop bomb-making equipment getting in) you might be right. Today that wouldn't be a threat.
 

swimmerXC

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Spike
Could the seismic activity be caused by a large conventional bomb? would it be relistic to explode that much tonnage. If not, its just a theory that North Korea staged the episode.

French Atomic Energy Commission says the NK bombed failed at getting a full nuclear detonation

The French Atomic Energy Commission says the blast measured about one kiloton or less and could have been the result of a failed nuclear test.

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