China ICBM/SLBM, nuclear arms thread

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Especially this paragraph from the article:


Honestly speaking, China definitely should (if not already) completely abandon that "minimum credible deterrence" doctrine, at least in non-public-facing settings.

"Minimum credible deterrence" no longer works against an increasingly belligerent US and its LCs. Only a close (if not absolute parity) with the US&LC's nuclear arsenal and anti-missile systems matter. This is something everyone in August 1st building and Zhongnanhai must/should (if not already) understand.

I think that's already been apparent for quite a few years now, so it is very much the case of "if not already".

That said I'm not entirely fond of Eveleth calling the PLARF's nuclear mission as one of being more counterforce in addition to countervalue. Counterforce in a nuclear context implies a doctrine where nuclear weapons are utilized against targets of military value, which in turn has to be reconciled with one's nuclear strategy (rather difficult to go for a counterforce strategy if one maintains a no first use doctrine, even if you have launch on warning).

I would personally describe the PLARF's new nuclear posture as one of comprehensive counter-value, where the primary goal of retaliatory capabilities is not simply to have the ability to retaliate against a couple of dozen countervalue targets, but potentially hundreds of countervalue targets.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
How many warheads do you estimate China would need for a full countervalue strategy, including flexible response on a theater level escalation ladder?
No need to follow tactic nuke escalation ladder. The moment the Americans use a nuke against a Chinese target, regardless of yield, Guam and Hawaii should be nuked by megaton city busters.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Especially this paragraph from the article:


Honestly speaking, China definitely should (if not already) completely abandon that "minimum credible deterrence" doctrine, at least in non-public-facing settings.

"Minimum credible deterrence" no longer works against an increasingly belligerent US and its LCs. Only a close (if not absolute parity) with the US&LC's nuclear arsenal and anti-missile systems matter. This is something everyone in August 1st building and Zhongnanhai must/should (if not already) understand.
China doesn't have hundreds of bases across the world, hence they need to rely on prompt global strike and hypersonic platforms. That's the practical reason why China would ideally rather pretend it doesn't even have nukes.

Because in any overseas reaching war, they'll use a lot of weapons that can conceivably look like nukes, but are just part of how they use technology to compensate for a lack of closer bases.

Another factor is the India question. India has famously not afforded much of an arsenal. As of 2024, it's likely that India is incapable of hitting anything through China's defenses. This is a comfortable status quo and it's best not to brag about it, or one might awake the elephant and they'll try to achieve MAD or just ability to hit 1-2 Chinese cities.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
China doesn't have hundreds of bases across the world, hence they need to rely on prompt global strike and hypersonic platforms. That's the practical reason why China would ideally rather pretend it doesn't even have nukes.

Because in any overseas reaching war, they'll use a lot of weapons that can conceivably look like nukes, but are just part of how they use technology to compensate for a lack of closer bases.

Having them and choose not to use them is not the same as not having them at all.

Another factor is the India question. India has famously not afforded much of an arsenal. As of 2024, it's likely that India is incapable of hitting anything through China's defenses. This is a comfortable status quo and it's best not to brag about it, or one might awake the elephant and they'll try to achieve MAD or just ability to hit 1-2 Chinese cities.

China's ongoing nuclear arsenal expansion effort has similar reasons as to why China developed her first nuclear bomb in the 1950s and 1960s - Not because India didn't have nuclear weapons (and wanting to kickstart a nuclear arms spawn+race in Asia), but because China was threatened with nuclear annihilation by not one, but two nuclear superpowers across her northern borders and across the Pacific simultaneously.

Besides, unless India somehow disintegrates and/or China launches a surprise full-on assault to destroy the entirety of India's nuclear arsenal and ICBM + warhead production capabilities in one go - It is foolish to hold onto the beliefs that India would never achieve the capability to nuke Chinese cities in the coming years, even if only one or few Agni-3/5 ICBMs manage to penetrate Chinese BMD systems.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Especially this paragraph from the article:


Honestly speaking, China definitely should (if not already) completely abandon that "minimum credible deterrence" doctrine, at least in non-public-facing settings.

"Minimum credible deterrence" no longer works against an increasingly belligerent US and its LCs. Only a close (if not absolute parity) with the US&LC's nuclear arsenal and anti-missile systems matter. This is something everyone in August 1st building and Zhongnanhai must/should (if not already) understand.
"Minimum" is an entirely meaningless term in this context. China could define any number of nuclear warheads it wants as the "minimum" regardless of what that is relative to the size of adversaries' arsenals. Its utility is that it sounds nice; it makes you seem reasonable and peaceable, which is something Chinese diplomacy values. But as a strategic concept it is entirely vacuous.
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
Especially this paragraph from the article:


Honestly speaking, China definitely should (if not already) completely abandon that "minimum credible deterrence" doctrine, at least in non-public-facing settings.

"Minimum credible deterrence" no longer works against an increasingly belligerent US and its LCs. Only a close (if not absolute parity) with the US&LC's nuclear arsenal and anti-missile systems matter. This is something everyone in August 1st building and Zhongnanhai must/should (if not already) understand.

On the contrary I think thought needs to be given to this. Part of the reason China maintained its NFU and minimum deterrence policy was to avoid antagonizing the Third World, which was in favor of relaxation of the nuclear arms race at the time China started developing nukes. China was trying to prove it itself was an upstart developing nation decolonizing itself, whereas the USSR and US were imperial powers vying for influence over nations like chess players.

Much of the world doesn't like nuclear weapons, virtually every nation except the nuclear powers + US vassals has signed the TPNW. While the Taiwan problem is important, another important goal is China's effort to present itself as a responsible global power. The USSR and US are viewed as having been pretty irresponsible for threatening millions of lives over their political disputes during Cold War I. For China, whether global support/respect is more important than a military upperhand over the US in the Taiwan problem is up for debate, but I think its a debate that the CPC should be having.

How many warheads do you estimate China would need for a full countervalue strategy, including flexible response on a theater level escalation ladder?

"Full countervalue strategy" is an oxymoron, because value is an inherently relative thing. If the US President publicly declares he will not allow 20 million Americans to die, all you have to do is threaten 5-10 cities and your countervalue strategy is done, because you're threatening what he values. If the US President says he is willing to let 50 million Americans die in order to prevent Taiwan from falling under CPC control, you need many more warheads because you will probably need to kill an enormous amount of people, and you will also need specialized systems, like high yield warheads designed to dig into national command bunkers, because you're probably going to need to kill the government officials themselves too.

How a Chinese flexible response would work is an interesting question. I assume any American nuclear use is going to be targeted at naval bases like Ningbo-Zhoushan or Zhanjiang. These bases are not remote, located more or less next door to cities (as most military bases are). The question for Chinese planners trying to create some sort of "proportionate response" is "what are we trying to proportion our response to." Will China be nuking a US naval base to retaliate for the destroyed military assets? Or nuking a city to retaliate for the civilian deaths? Or trying to create a similar amount of damage, perhaps by nuking Yokosuka, which is located near a town itself?

I myself question how a response is supposed to be made proportionate to civilian casualties, because determining casualties from a nuclear strike cannot be done in a matter of hours. If the response can't be made proportionate, it may not be worth trying to make it proportionate at all. If anything, a larger display of force could express Chinese resolve to escalate and (in theory) force the US to back down. If a Trident II with the 5 kiloton W76-2 detonates over Ningbo-Zhanjiang or worse, the amphibious ship dock in Shanghai, why not respond with a 500 kiloton DF-26 on Sasebo?

IMO, if the conflict is escalating to nuclear strikes China needs to begin escalating progressively, while openly stating unconditional terms for ceasefire that the US and its allies must accept. Nuclear escalation (initiated by the US, of course) opens the door to immediate cessation of a conflict that is otherwise (sometimes) predicted to potentially last years.

No need to follow tactic nuke escalation ladder. The moment the Americans use a nuke against a Chinese target, regardless of yield, Guam and Hawaii should be nuked by megaton city busters.

Guam and Hawaii are poor targets because they are not part of the continguous US. Guam also has a small civilian population compared to the areas surrounding Chinese naval and air bases that would likely be US tactical nuke targets.

Nuking China would be equivalent to someone nuking San Diego or Seattle, and under your preferred scenario where China forgoes regional escalation by responding in Japan, the US mainland is a better target, IMO.

It is important to note that Chinese nuclear use should be accompanied by terms for a ceasefire. Assuming this is all happening in the context of Taiwan and US intervention there, China's goal is not to destroy the US and Japan, whereas the American goal in any war is obviously to destroy China (just as SecDef Austin has talked about the goal of the Ukraine war being to "weaken Russia to where it can't do these things again"). China has the upper hand in gaining popular international support for peace and a ceasefire on terms favorable to it, and should press every tool it has to obtain maximum advantage.

A silly anecdote related to all of this discussion is that some US think tanks actually believe China will use nukes first. A CSIS wargame actually had their Chinese commanders using nukes against the ROCA on Taiwanese soil for no apparent reason. The reason is apparent when digging deeper into the report, each team consisted of 5-6 players and on the Chinese team, on average a whopping 1 of them was a China expert with understanding of PLA doctrine and CPC thinking lmao. Their "concerns" were disregarded by their fellow players.

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Note that the description of the wargame describes it as finding ways for China to salvage a failing conventional campaign. I sincerely hope the PLA is doing its own wargames to figure out how to prevent the US from escalating to full scale nuclear exchange once its intervention fails.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Guam and Hawaii are poor targets because they are not part of the continguous US. Guam also has a small civilian population compared to the areas surrounding Chinese naval and air bases that would likely be US tactical nuke targets.

Nuking China would be equivalent to someone nuking San Diego or Seattle, and under your preferred scenario where forgoes regional escalation by responding in Japan, the US mainland is a better target, IMO.
Something you should be aware of: China has something called 人防工程. It is a program to build bomb shelters in underground garages, underground commercial spaces, etc. If there are sufficient warnings, the civilian casualties from tactical nuke strikes are gonna be minimal. You can search YouTube with that term to see examples of the implementations.

Nuking Guam and Hawaii is both to increase the price the US has to pay for using nukes and to give the US an offramp. Both places are not CONUS like you said and it will be easier for the POTUS to stop the nuclear escalation politically.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
On the contrary I think thought needs to be given to this. Part of the reason China maintained its NFU and minimum deterrence policy was to avoid antagonizing the Third World, which was in favor of relaxation of the nuclear arms race at the time China started developing nukes. China was trying to prove it itself was an upstart developing nation decolonizing itself, whereas the USSR and US were imperial powers vying for influence over nations like chess players.

Much of the world doesn't like nuclear weapons, virtually every nation except the nuclear powers + US vassals has signed the TPNW. While the Taiwan problem is important, another important goal is China's effort to present itself as a responsible global power. The USSR and US are viewed as having been pretty irresponsible for threatening millions of lives over their political disputes during Cold War I. For China, whether global support/respect is more important than a military upperhand over the US in the Taiwan problem is up for debate, but I think its a debate that the CPC should be having.

You're equating the US, USSR/Russia, UK and France's intentions with their nuclear arsenals (as swords to blackmail/coerce other countries to advance/hold onto self interests) to China's intention with her nuclear arsenal (as a shield to secure the ultimate survival of her civilizational state).

Who cares what the rest of the world thinks - China's ultimate survival should always be the paramount factor that leads and comes before everything else. China's first nuclear test occurred just 1 year after the Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT) co-sponsored by both the US and the USSR came into effect. Many countries around the world (including majority of the 3rd world) ratified the PTBT - But did China give a sh1t?

PTBT_Participation.svg.png

If anything, being a now-rejuvenating global superpower herself that is returning to her historical position on the world stage which she held for thousands of years - China should definitely aim for at least a close parity with the US (&LC) in terms of actively deployed nuclear arsenal (whether that be the number of warheads or cumulative megatonnage). China is way stronger and way powerful today than she has ever been since 1949 - It's only natural for China to possess a nuclear arsenal with the scale that conforms to her present status on the global stage.

Needless to say, "minimal credible deterrence" from the 1980s no longer works today. Having the capability to lob 5 or 50 warheads at the enemy is completely different than having the capability to lob 500 warheads at the enemy. The enemy may be able to intercept all 5 or all 50 warheads, but can the enemy intercept all 500 warheads? That's called deterrence of proportionate response - And it's sorely needed in the present geopolitical climates in DC and Brussels, where more and more people are hallucinating that they are invincible against the "yellow peril of the 21st century".

But does that mean China should massively expand her nuclear arsenal like what the US and USSR did during the fever of the Cold War and stationing their respective nuclear warheads aimed at each other on foreign soil, whether the government administrating said foreign soil voluntarily allows it or being forced into it? No - Beijing explicitly argues against such moves.

Moreover - The China of today absolutely has the means of fielding nuclear-armed weapons that can:
1. Reach enemy homeland from China's home soil (TEL and silo-based ICBMs), AND
2. Be launched at the enemy homeland from closer distances (SSBNs and strategic bombers).
Both of which without putting other (allied) countries as nuclear cannon fodders, which is leagues different from the conducts by the US and the USSR/Russia.
 
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SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
It's only natural for China to possess a nuclear arsenal with the scale that conforms to her present status on the global stage.

Okay, but the idea that a massive nuclear arsenal is a symbol of great powerhood is a Western concept, born in Washington, D.C. and Moscow.

You're equating the US, USSR/Russia, UK and France's intentions with their nuclear arsenals (as swords to blackmail/coerce other countries to advance/hold onto self interests) to China's intention with her nuclear arsenal (as a shield to secure the ultimate survival of her civilizational state).

China's unique nuclear policy is only unique because of no first use and minimum deterrence. If either are dropped, it would appear as though it intends to build a force needed for coercion or blackmail.

Apart from a technological status symbol, nuclear weapons hold value because the enemy (US) fears nuclear weapons. They try and have tried to coerce China not because they can read the CPC's minds and know that China fears nuclear strikes so much it will cower under American threats, but because the US themselves fear nuclear weapons in such a way and thus would never use them lest their worst fear be realized (5 megaton detonations over LA, NYC, etc.).

Therefore China has no need to engage in the sort of esoteric, pride-measuring games that the USSR/Russia and US do. So long as its arsenal can survive long enough to launch, and break through US BMD defenses, it will never have to use it. This is why China did not widely deploy tactical nuclear weapons despite designing a small bomb for the Q-5 in the 70s. Nuclear weapons have little to no value on the battlefield, only as political messages.

If China was to abandon minimum deterrence, that would imply a transition to counterforce targeting. Nuclear weapons would not be a deterrent but an actual threat ("do as we say, because we can strike your silos, air bases, and sub bases before they can hit our cities"). It would require an enormous expense, requiring an increase in warheads everytime the US increases its arsenal, and would also be an admission that China feels threatened by nuclear weapons and can be coerced with nuclear attacks.

Who cares what the rest of the world thinks - China's ultimate survival should always be the paramount factor that leads and comes before everything else. China's first nuclear test occurred just 1 year after the Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT) co-sponsored by both the US and the USSR came into effect. Many countries around the world (including majority of the 3rd world) ratified the PTBT - But did China give a sh1t?

There's a certain point where China can indeed go "who cares what anyone thinks": for example, if the US somehow got the entire world to rally around Taiwan independence, that's a red line and China can take the gloves off.

I don't think the situation is there right now. China has the incentive to play the good guy. It is the US that refuses to adopt a no first use declaration, it is the US that withdrew from INF, it is the US that demands China join arms control negotiations when it has a total stockpile 5x the size of China's.

By claiming it still maintains a minimum deterrent, which it indeed does when compared to the US and Russian stockpiles, China can present itself as a protector of international stability, rather than a participant in dangerous arms races. Such an action would also help discredit the "China threat" narrative.

Needless to say, "minimal credible deterrence" from the 1980s no longer works today. Having the capability to lob 5 or 50 warheads at the enemy is completely different than having the capability to lob 500 warheads at the enemy. The enemy may be able to intercept all 5 or all 50 warheads, but can the enemy intercept all 500 warheads? That's called deterrence of proportionate response - And it's sorely needed in the present geopolitical climates in DC and Brussels, where more and more people are hallucinating that they are invincible against the "yellow peril of the 21st century".

I agree that 50 warheads is not enough, but 500 warheads is still a minimum deterrent by the standards of Russia and the US. The US has 400 warheads deployed across its ICBMs and 1,000 or so deployed across its submarines, not to mention everything in storage and the 300 some warheads for bombers (which would be useless against China or Russia's IADS, but might as well mention them). If the US were to upload more warheads after New START expires, that would bring the ICBM warheads to 1,200~ and the sub warheads to 2,000~ or so. Russia likely has similar numbers, which will only expand as Sarmat begins to enter widespread service during the 2030s.

But does that mean China should massively expand her nuclear arsenal like what the US and USSR did during the fever of the Cold War and stationing their respective nuclear warheads aimed at each other on foreign soil, whether the government administrating said foreign soil voluntarily allows it or being forced into it? No - Beijing explicitly argues against such moves.

China indeed does not argue for such moves, but when one argues that "China deserves a stockpile commensurate with its status on the global stage, meaning close parity with the US" that implies China is going to expand its arsenal dramatically if the US does, in order to maintain close parity. China only needs an arsenal large enough to lay waste to hundreds of American countervalue targets and survive American BMD. It does not need to engage in a counterforce mission or partake in "bean counting" exercises, as the USSR/Russia and US loved to do (and sometimes still dream of doing again).

US BMD is obviously never going to expand to the point where they could intercept 500 ICBMs and 120~ SLBMs. Because of this, even if the US was to expand its operational arsenal after the complete demise of New START in 2026, China should not follow the US and Russia in expanding its arsenal to such great heights, IMO.
 
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