China ICBM/SLBM, nuclear arms thread

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Hawaii is actually a good target retaliate against tactical nuclear on military target. It is over 1million population in a small concentration. It is an important military base. It is also not on the continent, meaning it has a chance of deescalation if as retaliation.

Hawaii is the highest you can go for retaliation if you do not want full exchange. You would be destroying a major city (1.4mil)as well as the most important base in Pacifics. It would cripple the conventional naval operation. If you respond tactical nuke on military target like Hainan base with Hawaii strike, it would even the odds.

If US does not deescalate after Hawaii, I am afraid there is no more room for proportionality. What is more important than Hawaii? Really not many. Shanghai? Taipei? New York? Once you strike that sort of target there is no coming back. So there really is no room for US to escalate with room to return either. If that does not stop eacalation, then all out strike for both side it is.
US will in fact not escalate at all if they believe they need to use most of their nukes to defeat China.

Beijing correctly characterised the threat of nukes in the hands of imperialists as a paper tiger. Why? Because US imperialists will never let a "brown" country like say Mexico or those on the African continent remain untouched after US' military and cities are destroyed by nukes.

In fact, the idea of just 50 nukes raining down on continental US, enough to destroy government/military but leaving 100 millions of helpless Americans alive, ready to be enslaved by those they consider "undesirables", might be more terrifying in their mind than dying immediately to 1000s of nukes.

So if US needs to use 1000s of nukes to ensure MAD with China only (which seems likely now/in the near future), US will never use nukes. Their arsenal looks scary but in reality it is not.
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
The minimum deterrent doctrine came into existence when China was not the main targets of the two most powerful countries of the world, and China was in no condition to build and maintain a large nuclear arsenal. Things are very very different now. China is now the number one target of the Hegemon because China’s mere existence is a threat to Pax America.

American think tanks and military personnel are openly talking about using nuclear weapons against China. In the latest CSIS wargame the American side decided to send over 1000 nukes to eliminate Chinese nuclear arsenal betting it can remove enough that China will not respond in kind.

The minimum deterrent at the point in time means China can still send 500+ megatons nukes to CONUS after a surprise first strike from the Hegemon that eliminated majority of China’s nuclear arsenal. Considering the chance of misfires, malfunctions, interceptions (with greater probability due to the THAAD radar in Korea), etc, more ICBMs and warheads are preferable.

I am of the opinion that China can build a survivable force without building an arsenal on the same scale as that of the US or Russia.

THAAD can't intercept ICBMs, only GBI can do it but it has a 25% success rate and is so problem-prone it probably couldn't even defeat a small North Korean attack. Interceptors can also be targeted by alternative methods, for example if the Type 096VI is quiet enough to safely sail outside the SCS or Bohai, it could approach close to Alaska and launch missiles to take out the GBI site prior to the first wave of ICBMs entering the GBI's DLZ.

At the moment, although there is much silly talk about the "Iron Dome" over all of CONUS, there is no threat to a strike of the size that can be expected by 2030 (500~ ICBMs, maybe 100-150~ SLBMs depending on how many 09VIs are built).

Who the hell cares what other people think when the survival of the entire Chinese civilization is at stake? Putin once asked what’s the point of having the world’s continuing existence when Russian people are gone? The same applies to China. The whole point of having 1000+ nuclear warheads with corresponding number of delivery vehicles is to prevent the Hegemon from using its nukes.

Awhile ago some South Korean asked online why China spent so much on her military when she claimed to be peace loving, someone responded: to make your American dad love peace too.

Perhaps I'm bringing up points that aren't worth discussion in a forum mainly about military technology. I think there are other ways of deterring US interference in Taiwan beyond nukes or in conjunction with nukes; economic and diplomatic means, etc.

Abandoning minimum deterrence does not equate to transitioning to a counterforce strategy at all.

I view minimum deterrence as countervalue where you seek to deter the enemy by holding at threat a small collection of their high value targets that if destroyed, would cause significant damage to an adversary's functioning as a nation.

The term I used in a previous post -- "comprehensive counter value" -- is a step or two above that, where you seek to hold to threat all of their valued targets in a manner which if destroyed, would end their existence as a civilization/nation. This is what I believe the PRC is aiming for vis-a-vis the US.

Counterforce is in turn a step above comprehensive counter value, which aims to target the actual military capabilities involved in waging war (including nuclear war), with the idea that one can "win" a nuclear war by preventing the other side from getting off their nukes. I do not view PRC nuclear capabilities as being intended for counterforce in nature, at least not yet. If we did, I would expect a much larger nuclear arsenal (like, 10,000+ warheads rather than 1,000+ warheads) being pursued.


Ultimately there is a difference between having the capability to nuke the top 10-20 largest cities of an adversary once each, versus being able to nuke the top 500 cities of an adversary potentially multiple times each. The former is more like minimum deterrence counter value, the latter is more like comprehensive counter value.
As to whether an adversary would be equally deterred between the former and latter.... in the past perhaps a nation might be, but in the last decade or so I believe that thinking has shifted.

I don't think minimum deterrence has a formal definition like that. It simply means the "minimum" amount of weapons necessary to deter an adversary. China has deliberately never defined what "minimum" constitutes for this reason, so that amount can change.

The way you describe comprehensive countervalue, it still can be defined as minimum deterrence. If and when China formally acknowledges the silo fields, I would expect them to claim that due to the international situation, the characteristics that define a minimum deterrent have changed. They would certainly also mention the much larger US arsenal, too.

Considering France and Britain have pretty token nuclear arsenals within the wider context of NATO-USSR/Russia confrontation, and essentially all of the terminology surrounding nuclear weapons and warfare was created prior to 1991, I tend to treat "normal" deterrence as a full size arsenal with both tactical, counterforce, and countervalue targeting capability: the capability both the US and Russia have. But alas, I think part of this discussion stems from differing ideas about what constitutes "minimum" and what doesn't.

From a different point of view, I would argue China still possesses some degree of a minimum deterrent even with "comprehensive countervalue," because it can't comprehensively target the US' nuclear forces. This provides incentive for the US to continually conduct tactical nuclear strikes, because China can't comprehensively target US strategic nukes. Thus if China actually decided to use its ICBMs against US cities, it could not launch that strike without ensuring its own destruction by US strategic nuclear forces.

To put this into perspective using an example from the 1970s, the USSR possessed a full deterrent. Even if it decided to use a nuke against CONUS in response to, say, a symbolic US nuclear strike on Soviet soil, it could do that while still deterring the US. The US would have to stop and think, "If we hit them back with a proportionate response, will the Soviets just launch a massive counterforce strike and destroy our ability to inflict catastrophic ("civilization ending") damage on the USSR?"

If China uses a nuke against Guam or Hawaii, the US can retaliate with confidence that China won't escalate all the way, because the US' strategic arsenal is entirely secure. From their POV, China is deterred and nukes are a viable option to bring about a ceasefire on terms favorable to the US, unless the CPC more or less decides to commit suicide (from their POV, I'm not taking into account Chinese civil defense measures, which the US is probably fairly unaware of or thinks of as not credible in ensuring "civilizational survival").

Within the context of not just one's own targeting capabilities, but the adversary's as well, a lack of counterforce capability still constitutes a minimum deterrent, IMO. It's minimal because it relies on the US having existential concern for itself, but doesn't take into account that US existential concerns might be alleviated so long as the adversary will suffer equal damage, just as US concerns about coming under a massive Soviet nuclear attack during a conflict fought in defense of West Germany were alleviated by the assurance that the Soviets would suffer equal damage.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't think minimum deterrence has a formal definition like that. It simply means the "minimum" amount of weapons necessary to deter an adversary. China has deliberately never defined what "minimum" constitutes for this reason, so that amount can change.

The way you describe comprehensive countervalue, it still can be defined as minimum deterrence. If and when China formally acknowledges the silo fields, I would expect them to claim that due to the international situation, the characteristics that define a minimum deterrent have changed. They would certainly also mention the much larger US arsenal, too.

If that's how you view it, then sure I suppose that can be considered "minimum deterrence" however in practice in context of US-PRC deterrence dynamics, it was in context of the US being sufficiently deterred by holding to threat a dozen or more of their most highly valued targets, versus being able to hold to threat the entirety of US civilization (the latter of which I view as comprehensive counter value).
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I am of the opinion that China can build a survivable force without building an arsenal on the same scale as that of the US or Russia.
What should the size of the arsenal be that can still provide a civilization ending effect on the US after a surprise first strike?
THAAD can't intercept ICBMs, only GBI can do it but it has a 25% success rate and is so problem-prone it probably couldn't even defeat a small North Korean attack. Interceptors can also be targeted by alternative methods, for example if the Type 096VI is quiet enough to safely sail outside the SCS or Bohai, it could approach close to Alaska and launch missiles to take out the GBI site prior to the first wave of ICBMs entering the GBI's DLZ.
I specifically said THAAD radar providing missile flight information, not interception.
Type 09VI doesn’t exist and geography limits their usefulness.
At the moment, although there is much silly talk about the "Iron Dome" over all of CONUS, there is no threat to a strike of the size that can be expected by 2030 (500~ ICBMs, maybe 100-150~ SLBMs depending on how many 09VIs are built).
US has over 280 Tridents missiles with over 1000 warheads. A small number of them can take out all Chinese silos fields. 500 ICBM is far from enough.
Perhaps I'm bringing up points that aren't worth discussion in a forum mainly about military technology. I think there are other ways of deterring US interference in Taiwan beyond nukes or in conjunction with nukes; economic and diplomatic means, etc.
You should read up Chinese history on what happened to the 宋 dynasty.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
What should the size of the arsenal be that can still provide a civilization ending effect on the US after a surprise first strike?

I specifically said THAAD radar providing missile flight information, not interception.
Type 09VI doesn’t exist and geography limits their usefulness.

US has over 280 Tridents missiles with over 1000 warheads. A small number of them can take out all Chinese silos fields. 500 ICBM is far from enough.

You should read up Chinese history on what happened to the 宋 dynasty.
There is no such thing as a surprise strike due to early warning radars and satellites. The DFs are in the air moments after the tridents are.

Hence why China puts so much effort (=money) into missile defense, they already have the offense parts well covered for a long time.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
To put this into perspective using an example from the 1970s, the USSR possessed a full deterrent. Even if it decided to use a nuke against CONUS in response to, say, a symbolic US nuclear strike on Soviet soil, it could do that while still deterring the US. The US would have to stop and think, "If we hit them back with a proportionate response, will the Soviets just launch a massive counterforce strike and destroy our ability to inflict catastrophic ("civilization ending") damage on the USSR?"

If China uses a nuke against Guam or Hawaii, the US can retaliate with confidence that China won't escalate all the way, because the US' strategic arsenal is entirely secure. From their POV, China is deterred and nukes are a viable option to bring about a ceasefire on terms favorable to the US, unless the CPC more or less decides to commit suicide (from their POV, I'm not taking into account Chinese civil defense measures, which the US is probably fairly unaware of or thinks of as not credible in ensuring "civilizational survival").

Within the context of not just one's own targeting capabilities, but the adversary's as well, a lack of counterforce capability still constitutes a minimum deterrent, IMO. It's minimal because it relies on the US having existential concern for itself, but doesn't take into account that US existential concerns might be alleviated so long as the adversary will suffer equal damage, just as US concerns about coming under a massive Soviet nuclear attack during a conflict fought in defense of West Germany were alleviated by the assurance that the Soviets would suffer equal damage.
If US use tactical nuclear weapon on a scale small enough, China can simply inflict bigger damage strategically without "use it or lose it" problem. Then China could issue ultimatem to stop use of all nuclear weapon. The next one will be MAD if warning is not heeded.

I think humanity deserves a second chance if the first wave attack is limited. US could entirely blame individual soldiers and back down, after receiving bigger damage than dealt.

This is all assuming US only launch a couple low yield nuclear weapon on military target. Anything higher would render China at "use it or lose it" situation, then proportionality stop apply.
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
What should the size of the arsenal be that can still provide a civilization ending effect on the US after a surprise first strike?

US has over 280 Tridents missiles with over 1000 warheads. A small number of them can take out all Chinese silos fields. 500 ICBM is far from enough.

No matter how many ICBMs China has, if they are not launched after the detection and confirmation of an incoming US strike, they will all be destroyed on the ground. The US will just build more to target more of the silo fields each time China has more.

Mobile ICBMs were intended to alleviate this problem. Unfortunately I haven't found much about post-2016 practices, but SAC doctrine was to disperse the ICBMs to one out of many pre-sited, camouflaged launch sites after the beginning of a conflict. In theory, mobile ICBM units were also supposed to be able to ride out an attack inside their bunkers, although the storage of warheads all the way in Baoji would have limited the ability to then retaliate.

Silo or mobile, arsenal size doesn't play much of a role in survivability if they don't launch on warning. If not all ready, the existence of so many silos in the first place is a sign China will at least partially adopt such a posture (as silos are useless in the kind of sudden enemy attack contemplated under SAC doctrine).

In my opinion, the size of the operational arsenal should be tailored to whatever China determines as necessary for "comprehensive countervalue" and then its survivability should be strengthened by "real" means; deploying BMD assets around missile bases, launching more early warning satellites, building a new generation BMD radar to replacement the LPARs, etc.

I specifically said THAAD radar providing missile flight information, not interception.
Type 09VI doesn’t exist and geography limits their usefulness.

My misunderstanding, apologies.

I brought up Type 09VI because I assumed this was more of a conversation about China's expected "complete" deterrent circa 2030. Speaking about the present or next couple years, it isn't clear the silos have actually been armed, and thus they wouldn't play a role.

You should read up Chinese history on what happened to the 宋 dynasty.

I don't think the US has comparable will or morale to the Mongols.

The US and China, for different reasons, both have expressed their opinion that use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be unacceptable for any reason. The whole world (except North Korea) joined in with them, regardless of their stance on the rest of the Ukraine conflict. Nobody likes nukes, and China could easily reproduce this kind of pressure on the US.

Such pressure from both international and domestic opinion is part of why the US never used nukes during the Second TWS Crisis or during Vietnam. Internal US assessments from 1967-68 showed it basically would have torpedoed their diplomatic standing with the entire world and turned them into a pariah state. And even the (at the time) tiny Chinese nuclear force played a role in deterring US nuke use in Vietnam too.

Again though, this is not the only aspect of how to prevent US nuclear use. A large and survivable arsenal plays a big part too, I just disagree with the assessments of others it needs to be so large as to be equivalent in size to the US arsenal.
 

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
The US and China, for different reasons, both have expressed their opinion that use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be unacceptable for any reason. The whole world (except North Korea) joined in with them, regardless of their stance on the rest of the Ukraine conflict. Nobody likes nukes, and China could easily reproduce this kind of pressure on the US.

Such pressure from both international and domestic opinion is part of why the US never used nukes during the Second TWS Crisis or during Vietnam. Internal US assessments from 1967-68 showed it basically would have torpedoed their diplomatic standing with the entire world and turned them into a pariah state. And even the (at the time) tiny Chinese nuclear force played a role in deterring US nuke use in Vietnam too.
I hold an extremely pessimistic attitude towards this.
The United States during the Cold War and the United States that achieved victory in the Cold War have two different international statuses.
The sheltering of Israel's atrocities has fully demonstrated that they do not care about international reputation, as they have gained absolute say.
If you can prove to the world that you have the ability to destroy one-fifth of humanity, what else in the world cannot be obtained by the United States?
The Strait War simulation of CSIS has already shown radical behavior of attempting a full-scale nuclear attack, so it is difficult to guarantee that Washington D.C. will not have a madman who thinks they have the advantage.
 

nativechicken

New Member
Registered Member
No matter how many ICBMs China has, if they are not launched after the detection and confirmation of an incoming US strike, they will all be destroyed on the ground. The US will just build more to target more of the silo fields each time China has more.
Do you think that for every intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) China has, the United States can increase its ICBM count to counter? After seeing this, I just want to laugh out loud (OLO).

The United States no longer has the capability to expand the deployment of ICBMs. To be honest, it's difficult for them to even maintain their existing nuclear deterrence capabilities.

The U.S. nuclear arsenal is already too old; most of it has passed its expiration date and needs to be reproduced. The current production capacity of the United States, especially for large solid propellant rockets, is far from what it was in the 1970s to 1990s. They are facing multiple issues, including supply chain and technology gaps as well as a lack of technical personnel.

The current technical status of U.S. nuclear weapons makes it practically impossible to carry out scaled, consecutive launches, whether land-based or submarine-launched ballistic missiles (Minuteman III and Trident D5).

So, in fact, the United States has already lost the ability to conduct a scaled nuclear surprise attack on China.

The U.S. has been wanting to invest in the next generation of nuclear weapon carriers (ICBMs) for a long time (it's not just a consideration of today; it's been an issue for many years). Until now, the problem continues to worsen with no signs of improvement.

I find something quite interesting: most Westerners assume that China would be defeated in a war against the United States, using nuclear weapons first and then being overwhelmed by the opponent's vast nuclear arsenal, leading to failure. In fact, in the view of many Chinese, especially those familiar with the military, we are more concerned that the United States would not be able to withstand a significant defeat and huge losses in a conventional armed confrontation with China, gradually raising the stakes until, in a state of delusion that China's nuclear armament is far below that of the U.S., they would attempt to strike China with an imagined nuclear advantage. Westerners do not realize that once this war begins, it would inevitably mark the official end of Western hegemony over the past 400 years (the collapse of the Western order). The Chinese are very clear about what this means for both sides, how terrifying the ultimate intensity of the war would be, and the cost of losing.

Therefore, China has chosen to massively construct ICBM silos in the northwestern desert. I am just curious about the logical confusion of Western military observers, who on one hand claim that countless information indicates that China will wage war on Taiwan by 2027, and on the other hand believe that China's nuclear weapons deployment will not reach 1,500 warheads until 2035. They ignore the hundreds of new wind turbine bases being built in the desert. They also selectively overlook that several different Chinese military-industrial groups (with trillions of yuan in assets) have built new solid rocket production bases around 2020, each constructed to produce 20-30 quick-reaction solid rockets annually (at least at the level of producing Trident D5, Peacekeeper class solid fuel launch vehicles). Go see how many civilian solid rockets China launches annually? Think about what this production capacity is doing now.

If China really intends to reclaim Taiwan by 2027, how could it not be prepared for all aspects of war, including nuclear weapons, by that year?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
No matter how many ICBMs China has, if they are not launched after the detection and confirmation of an incoming US strike, they will all be destroyed on the ground. The US will just build more to target more of the silo fields each time China has more.
can they though? what is their build rate of solid fuel rockets? based on available evidence:

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So ~3.2 complete rockets per year since they're not building these and storing these for launches. Let's say their military program can work 10x faster than their civilian program (but you and I both know it is a joke to expect that). Then their max production would be something like 32 solid fuel rockets per year.
 
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