Z-10 thread

[MiG-29]

Ha ha ha.... no. China is reducing their reliance on Russia and will be completely free of it very soon. Before, it was Chinese money and Russian tech. Now, China has surpassed Russia in BOTH of these categories, what do Russians have to offer? Nothing; at least not to China. But fear not, India will be your loyal customers for many years to come.

In sinodefence i expect this answer, in reality Russia and China are allies, and the proof is most of chinese aviation has a link with Russia, either engines or licenses.

Globalization is a thing that happens in military technology, China and Russia do cooperate, but here in the forum reality is always distorted by unrealitic views about China surpassing Russia.

The reality is both nations need each other, China still needs Russian tech as Russia needs Chinese money.
will China share technology with Russia? yes they will as Russia shares technology with China.

China and Russia form the NATO of the east.

 

[MiG-29]

more and more or less and less?? Military aviation is strategical for world big powers. they don't cooperate to develop military aircraft unless they are very close ally (even between ally it's very hard). As china and russia aren't really ally it will not happen. Globalization does not mean what you are thinking.



It's not about weakness or strength. So do you think they should cooperate to develop their next gen bomber or ICBM in order to cheapen and share risks?

In real life technology needs to be sold, and investment to be shared, China and Russia are allies, they will invest more and more in each others aviations, China and Russia know that.

Kamov sharing tech with the Chinese in Z-10 is not a sign of weakness of China but a sign they are allies, for China to have a fleet of 200 Flankers and 200 J-10s with AL-31s is a sign Russia considers China an ally.

You misunderstand globalization simply because you think China will do everything alone, that was in 1900, today, no nation does absolutely everything by its self, is not Eurofighter or Tiger, but also F-35 or airbus or B-787 or An-124, all nations can not invest money to waste in military projects without an ally and a partner.


Kamov helped China as a financial aid for its self and because China is an ally of Russia and the kremlin considers China can have the know how Russia can share.

 

[MwRYum]

In real life technology needs to be sold, and investment to be shared, China and Russia are allies, they will invest more and more in each others aviations, China and Russia know that.

Kamov sharing tech with the Chinese in Z-10 is not a sign of weakness of China but a sign they are allies, Russia for China to have a fleet of 200 Flankers and 200 J-10s with AL-31s is a sign Russia considers China an ally.

You misunderstand globalization simply because you think China will do everything alone, that was in 1900, today, no nation does absolutely everything by its self, is not Eurofighter or Tiger, but also F-35 or airbus or B-787 or An-124, all nations can not invest money to waste in military projects with an ally and a partner.


Kamov helped China as a financial aid for its self and because China is an ally of Russia and the kremlin considers China can have the know how Russia can share.

Russia won't sell everything China wants, or, at least, whatever Russia consider as strategical or when China just want certain component techs - obviously you earn more by selling the full product, not teaching your competitor how to do some of the component tech and they make something to compete with you in the same market you're driving for.

Though in this case, the dedicated attack helicopter is a pretty niche market...if you don't make your own, most likely you're in US pocket and thus you buy AH-1Z or the latest iteration of the AH-64; likes of China and India only recently departed from the "the remaining few" group with their respective projects comes to fruition...in the case of China, it'd be the engines and avionics that requires more work.

Anyway, if it was the Kamov gave the Chinese some "starter" to begin with, that'd make the Z-19 the true home-grown project, then?

 

[MiG-29]

Russia won't sell everything they want to China, or, at least, whatever that's strategical or just in component tech - obviously you earn more by selling the full product, not teaching your competitor how to do some of the component tech and they make something to compete with you in the same market you're driving for.

Though in this case, the dedicated attack helicopter is a pretty niche market...if you don't make your own, most likely you're in US pocket and thus you buy AH-1Z or the latest iteration of the AH-64; likes of China and India only recently departed from the "the remaining few" group with their respective projects comes to fruition...in the case of China, it'd be the engines and avionics that requires more work.

Anyway, if it was the Kamov gave the Chinese some "starter" to begin with, that'd make the Z-19 the true home-grown project, then?

Not exactly

Does the USA sell F-22 to England or Japan?

No the Us does not sell F-22 to England, are they allies?

Does Japan sell F-15s without US authorization?

answer no, japan does not, are they allies? yes they are.

Does the US sells Ah-64 to England? yes it does.

Does Russia sell Mi-17 to China?
yes she does.


Allies do share technology, it does not mean they might not compete or respect each others rights.

Eurofighters is pitted against Rafale or F-16s but it does not make England not to be an ally of the USA.

Rafale is pitted against Eurofighters and still France and England make airbuses togather.

Russia and China are the same, sometimes they might compete other cooperate but definitively China and Russia are strategic allies.

 

[escobar]

In sinodefence i expect this answer, in reality Russia and China are allies,

In reality Russia and China are neither allies nor ennemies.

and the proof is most of chinese aviation has a link with Russia, either engines or licenses.

because china is buying engines from russia they became allies? What is that logic?

Globalization is a thing that happens in military technology, China and Russia do cooperate,

Not in strategical assets as military aviation. I don't think china buying engines or licenses could be called a cooperation. At least not in the full sense of the term

but here in the forum reality is always distorted by unrealitic views about China surpassing Russia.

what dou you expect? It is called sinodefenceforum not russiandefenceforum.

The reality is both nations need each other, China still needs Russian tech as Russia needs Chinese money.

I agree with that

will China share technology with Russia? yes they will as Russia shares technology with China.

share or sell??

China and Russia form the NATO of the east.

I take this as a joke.

 

[MiG-29]

In reality Russia and China are neither allies nor ennemies.



because china is buying engines from russia they became allies? What is that logic?



Not in strategical assets as military aviation. I don't think china buying engines or licenses could be called a cooperation. At least not in the full sense of the term



what dou you expect? It is called sinodefenceforum not russiandefenceforum.



I agree with that

will China share technology with Russia? yes they will as Russia shares technology with China.

share or sell??



I take this as a joke.

Russia is an ally of China, what happens is you think if China gets some help by Russia by helping Z-10 or J-10 means is china`s weakness.

It is not, aircraft design is expensive, so expensive is more profitable for all nations to do it togather.
Z-10 saved a lot of money in R&D by being helped by Kamov.

To give you a simple example, Germany has the technology to make a fighter or and aircraft like A-340 by itself, however it is not profitable and takes a lot of money of social programs.

So they chose to go in joint ventures.


The US is the same, today`s american aircraft are also international programs, F-35 is a good example.

J-10s are also expensive toys, that only burn economic resources.

Tiger helicopter is the same by going togather the price goes down.


Will Russia and China joint in common programs you can be sure they will, because military aircraft only burn money and do not make profits unless you export them.

China does not export many aircraft that makes, and even if they decide to go to export them, risks partners are a way to reduce losses.

Z-10 was designed by Kamov up to was profitable to both China and Russia.

China added what they mastered and Russia got a profit.

Both know joint ventures are the future.

 

[escobar]

In real life technology needs to be sold, and investment to be shared, China and Russia are allies, they will invest more and more in each others aviations, China and Russia know that.

Can you give a single exemple where china is/will investing in a russian aviation military project or inversely?

Kamov sharing tech with the Chinese in Z-10 is not a sign of weakness of China but a sign

Where did I say it 's a a sign of weakness?

for China to have a fleet of 200 Flankers and 200 J-10s with AL-31s is a sign Russia considers China an ally.

for China to have a fleet of 200 Flankers and 200 J-10s with AL-31s is a sign of usual business or as you have already said: "Russia needs Chinese money"

You misunderstand globalization simply because you think China will do everything alone, that was in 1900, today, no nation does absolutely everything by its self, is not Eurofighter or Tiger, but also F-35 or airbus or B-787 or An-124, all nations can not invest money to waste in military projects without an ally and a partner.

We are talking about military projects not thing like airbus plane or B-787. Eurofighter or Tiger or F-35(to a lesser degree) are exemples of project coming from close allies like i have said. China and russian are not cooperating on J-20/Pak-Fa projects even if J-20 prototypes use russian engine.

 

[vesicles]

Russia is an ally of China, what happens is you think if China gets some help by Russia by helping Z-10 or J-10 means is china`s weakness.

I don't know how Russia views China, but China almost certainly views Russia with suspicion. Whenever China wants to do something, the first thing it thinks about is to secure its northern border so that Russia would not be able to take advantage of China's diverted attention. Many of the strategic plans of China focuses on Russia and how to prevent Russia from attacking China from the north. These plans include maintaining absolute control of Xinjiang, which acts as a buffer zone between China and Russia.

 

[plawolf]

now watch Plawolf trying to minimize the Russian contribution, of course i guess you were some how part of the design team who knows all the details so i can take your post an official response.

Globalization is cooperation contrary to your nationalistic rants, Russia and China will cooperate more and more in aviation, that is what economically and technologically the best for both nations and a subproduct of globalization.

Is not weakness of China or Russia to cooperate with each other but a better way to cheapen aircraft programs and share risks.

The only one making nationalistic rants is you.

If you had used a fraction of the time you spent chest thumping for basic fact finding and research, you would realize that everything I said is based on the comments made your your own Hero of the Russian Federation.

In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.

"Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret," he says.

The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.

After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.

Kamov's involvement was only between 1995-1996. Go figure exactly how much detail they could have gone into in such a short time frame.

 

[MiG-29]

Can you give a single exemple where china is/will investing in a russian aviation military project or inversely?



.

Look, your vision is Kamov`s help is a disgrace, China is weak is obvious what view permeates.

In my opinion, and going by realistic economic aspects is.

Can China design Z-10 by it self? yes they can, absolutly they can design the whole aircraft.

The problem lies in timing and price.

Kamov allows Z-10 to reduce development time, that also means less money in R&D for China and means China can concentrate in more social programs like creating jobs or increasing investment in social programs.

By reducing time means China can get a Z-10 competive in time, it means the Helicopter flies with contemporary aircraft with a relatively good position for exportability and combat effectiveness.

Being an ally it does not mean you can not go togather or alone, Italy designs A-129 and Tiger is a German-French program.

Germany can develop a helicopter by her self, no doubt about it, but by doing it in joint ventures you get price down and lower risks loses.

Russia in the 1990s was not able to buy even Mi-28, so Z-10 was out of the question.

So China went alone and now Russia wants to consolidate its aircraft industry to have better footing in joing ventures.

China is the same, however you are unrealistic to think they won`t do joint ventures, because the fact China has built in 10 years less J-10s than what the US has exported F-16s and F-18s show you how burdensome is aircraft financing.

Building J-10s or J-11 is expensive because they only spend money, money is only recovered if you export those jets.

But as ARJ-21 shows, going alone is hard.

So what China and Russia are doing is stregthening their respective aviation industries so they will be major partners in joint ventures.

Rafale is a good example, if one nation wants to be a leading partner, then the joint program might fail, but as Eurofighter shows is better always jont ventures because as time passes aircraft prices go up and aircraft purchased go down.