Z-10 thread

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
The only one making nationalistic rants is you.

If.

I am sure you were part of Kamov`s team since you seem to know what they did do, i guess they just drew a helicopter on a piece of paper and later gave it to the Chinese:D;) i guess you were also doing research there for Kamov you seem to know how little Kamov did.
 

kroko

Senior Member
Regarding relations betwen china and russia, they are neither allies nor enemies. But they do share some interests in the international arena. Both are intended to stand up to western interests, for right or wrong. I think that they have a good economic relationship (russia will export ever more energy to china), and are intended to be good neighbours. Some people on both sides dont like that because they would like their respective country to impose its power on the other, but these people are in the minority.

I don't know how Russia views China, but China almost certainly views Russia with suspicion. Whenever China wants to do something, the first thing it thinks about is to secure its northern border so that Russia would not be able to take advantage of China's diverted attention. Many of the strategic plans of China focuses on Russia and how to prevent Russia from attacking China from the north. These plans include maintaining absolute control of Xinjiang, which acts as a buffer zone between China and Russia.

?? how can russia threaten china, except with nuclear weapons ?? china´s land forces are several times bigger than russia´s land forces, not to mention reserves. Russia cant even dream of invading china, even it it wanted to.

here in the forum reality is always distorted by unrealitic views about China surpassing Russia.

China has already surpassed russia, not only in terms of economics (china´s GDP is several times bigger than russia´s GDP and has twice the growth rate, if not more. Even Putin admit that china is in another league) but also in several tech areas (eletronics, consumer goods and even shipbuilding). the only areas where russia has a clear advantage is in the military, civilian aeronautics and nuclear power. But i think that its only a matter of time before china catches up in these areas.

This is not unsurprising, because china has ten times the population of russia, and its geography and population distribution is more suitable to economic development than russia.
 
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cn_habs

Junior Member
Copying is best form of flattery and part of the learning process as China couldn't make jack in heavy military hardware in 1949.

When the engine will be ready, the WZ-10 will at least be 100% indigenous something very few countries have accomplished.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys ... I have that strange feeling some of us - maybe including myself - need a bit to calm down ! As such I would like to ask all involved immedeately to stop adding politics, nationalsitic remarks in either "... better" than or " worse as ..." !

I'm sure if this won't stop the next step will be not as kind as this post ....

Deino
 

escobar

Brigadier
Look, your vision is Kamov`s help is a disgrace, China is weak is obvious what view permeates.

How could you talking about my vision when I have said nothing about all this story concerning WZ-10 actually being designed by Kamov?? In fact I'am happy they got some help from Kamov. Go read my first post before saying you know my vision on this affair.
 

jobjed

Captain
How can that be. The border between Xinjiang and Russia is only some 40 km long.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure that the Xinjiang plain is supposed to be abandoned immediately upon a Soviet/Russian attack. If you take a look at this map, you can see that the North East and North West extremities are empty of major military concentrations.
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Tibet will probably be inaccessible to both Chinese or Russian troops due to its high altitude so the PLA left it empty too.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
China has already surpassed russia, not only in terms of economics (china´s GDP is several times bigger than russia´s GDP and has twice the growth rate, if not more. Even Putin admit that china is in another league) but also in several tech areas (eletronics, consumer goods and even shipbuilding). the only areas where russia has a clear advantage is in the military, civilian aeronautics and nuclear power. But i think that its only a matter of time before china catches up in these areas.

This is not unsurprising, because china has ten times the population of russia, and its geography and population distribution is more suitable to economic development than russia.

If you keep it to per capita you have a different picture.

But anyway let us keep the conversation in aviation.

Russia and well as China have social programs, richer nations like Germany or England or even the US go for joint ventures to save money and speed up development.

To put you an example simple is LCA and J-10.

Both nations tried to build a light weight fighter, China went for a more practical way simple by fitting AL-31 from the begining, while India went for Kaveri but at the end LCA entered with F404s.

Same is Z-10 is possible China could have gone alone, but this would had meant longer development time, so this would had forced Z-10 to enter service later in the decade or almost during the 2020s or even more later.

By going with Kamov, the project entered operational service earlier, saved R&D time and money.


Here is common to claim the Russians are lying or people minimize their contribution, the reality is Russia has played a big part in the Chinese aviation development.


Embraer, Boeing, Lockheed Martin understand that very well, now even Sukhoi understand that, that globalization means joint ventures.

Joint ventures are good ways to reduce price and minizing risks for each partner; other option is outsourcing or simply building parts in a third country like some countries do.
 

MwRYum

Major
Russia and China can never be called "allies", at best they're in the same trench out of necessity. To not realize it by now, you've to be hopelessly naive, or a "Bible Belt Redneck", or you're a time-traveler just arrived from 1950s.

China got sweet deals from Russia was all thanks to the economic chaos brought by the collapse of the USSR, which China has a part to play in that...Russians did what they needed to survive and that means can't be picky with what the customer with hard cash knocking at the door.

And someone here sounds like the Russians said on Kanwa: "the Chinese just have to ask, we'll sell them"...but c'mon, everyone knows that's not the whole truth...
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Russia and China can never be called "allies", at best they're in the same trench out of necessity. To not realize it by now, you've to be hopelessly naive, or a "Bible Belt Redneck", or you're a time-traveler just arrived from 1950s.

...
No i am not naive, i am not claiming China and Russian cooperate under a communits ideal, but forced the by rising costs of making aircraft as they become more advanced.

Z-10 is a ver advanced aircraft, just in computer power will leave obsolete many helicopters build in 1980.
To make a very advanced helicopter you need to make it with up to date technology, that is where Kamov`s experience has played the role in Z-10.

Globalization means under economic needs, companies expand overseas in search of new Markets and alliances.
Kamov did that.
A Mi-2 is not so advanced that probably is in the range of some countries to build now, however commercially is not profitable since the Market demands highly advanced machines.

China did not want to build a 1960s or 1970s helicopter but something for 2010, that has competive technology.
The only way to do that is by cooperating with Kamov.

Modern machine have rising costs so sharing tech with Kamov, China cut time and costs for the Z-10`s development.

Russia`s cooperation with China follows the rules of globalization, and the Chinese also are following those rules with aircraft like ARJ-21, J-15 or other jets.
 
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