Z-10 thread

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Franklin

Captain
The WZ-16 Turboshaft engine with 1500kW and 1800 shp power output. This engine should be certified this year and probably enter serial production next year. This engine will power future Z-10, Z15 and Z-20 helicopters.

can't upload image from computer file

As for the Kamov story. China in the 1990's had zero experience in designing or building a modern attack helicopter so to help them kick start the project they paid Kamov in Russia for some consultancy work on the design. Nothing special about it only nationalists and haters would make a big deal out of this.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
The WZ-16 Turboshaft engine with 1500kW and 1800 shp power output. This engine should be certified this year and probably enter serial production next year. This engine will power future Z-10, Z15 and Z-20 helicopters.

can't upload image from computer file

As for the Kamov story. China in the 1990's had zero experience in designing or building a modern attack helicopter so to help them kick start the project they paid Kamov in Russia for some consultancy work on the design. Nothing special about it only nationalists and haters would make a big deal out of this.

The Kamov 'story' sounds more like a fairy tale. I doubt Russia can design a modern attack copter like Z10 today, let alone the 90s.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The Kamov 'story' sounds more like a fairy tale. I doubt Russia can design a modern attack copter like Z10 today, let alone the 90s.

Why ... have You ever seen their concepts and design ? I especially like the Ka-40 naval type projected to replace the Ka-27 ... so probably there was even more .... !?

Deino
 

Franklin

Captain
The Kamov 'story' sounds more like a fairy tale. I doubt Russia can design a modern attack copter like Z10 today, let alone the 90s.

Actually the Russians today produce the Mi-28 Havoc and the Ka-52 Blackshark those are pretty impressive attack helicopters. But the Russian's do have to import the engines for these helicopters from the Ukraine. :(
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Although both of then have to this point failed in export both are fairly modern systems with top fire power. Mil 28 is a conventional configuration sat nosed chopper. ka 50 is a unique type a single seater (ka 52 a is tandem seated variant ) and if that was not unique enough it has coaxial main rotors and no tail prop. Both are over powered for there weight class.
When I compare the ka 50 to the z10 I just dont see any indications of a common designer. But that is purely opinion and based no subjective looks and the fact tha most russian choppers are over powered well the z10 is under power. Kamov is known for there coaxial helicopters yet it also designed the very contemporary ka 60 so anything is possible.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Russia and China can never be called "allies", at best they're in the same trench out of necessity...

The Russians are between the devil and the deep blue sea; they rather not ride the Dragon, but they can't really get off ether. My guess is China will be the defacto soverign over the RFE in about 50 years.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Wasn't it someone in here that said that for helicopters the most important part is the engine? Physical design is not as important as for fighters. The Russians are saying they designed the WZ-10 almost 20 years ago. What part? We know it's hardly anything inside because that would be outdated. So it comes down to just looks. How superficial! Before this revelation, how many China-haters called it ugly or stolen from European or South African designs? So now all of the sudden these very people are giving the Russians credit. For an ugly stolen design?

This is the act of the desperate from those who already believe everything China has is Russian or stolen from the West in the first place. Because of the hacking story now they're claiming the J-20 was stolen from the F-35. You mean the same J-20 they said was a copy of the Russian Mig 1.44? So how can it be stolen from the F-35 unless the Russians stole it. I know how can that be by the dates alone. Well that's not my contradiction. But it's the same illogic of Lou Dobbs when he was on CNN who claimed China had stolen through espionage from the US weapon systems that hadn't been developed yet. How can you steal something that doesn't exist? The illogic doesn't matter. It's all about planting the seeds that when they see something China develops that they don't have, automatically people will believe it was stolen from them.

Is it possible that the Russians did design the WZ-10? Yeah, but that was twenty years ago and the only thing they maybe able to take credit for is the shell which don't mean crap when it comes to helicopters. Big deal! You have to take into account the Russians are in the same helpless position as the West in seeing China's development. They come from between the rock and a hard place in envy seeing China do what the old Soviet Union could never do and not wanting China to fall under the West's influence. Like the Russians want to see China surrender to the West because that only means they're next. So you can see where their frustrations comes from. They only thing they can do is make claims. It's not like it takes much to get an audience. Look at how Gordan Chang has gotten all his anti-China predictions wrong yet he still finds himself being called by the US media as an expert on China. Being right is not important. What is important is he says the things people want to hear. When people are content with just having people tell them what they want to hear even if they're lies, they've already lost whatever is important to them. Is China going to "lose" because the Russians are the designers of the WZ-10? Does it somehow save the lives of China's potential enemies in a war? It basically comes down to the pettiness of the likes of David Axe who has a problem with seeing any sort of Chinese pride.

The only thing people can do when they see they're not in control is grab at straws.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The WZ-16 Turboshaft engine with 1500kW and 1800 shp power output. This engine should be certified this year and probably enter serial production next year. This engine will power future Z-10, Z15 and Z-20 helicopters.

can't upload image from computer file

As for the Kamov story. China in the 1990's had zero experience in designing or building a modern attack helicopter so to help them kick start the project they paid Kamov in Russia for some consultancy work on the design. Nothing special about it only nationalists and haters would make a big deal out of this.

There is no proof whatsoever that Kamov help China developing WZ 10 People should not take credit where credit is not due. Only people with severe inferiority complex lap everything what the rumor mill produced.

Why would anyone give freely their crown jewel of technology to the future competitor No one will do that. Kamov interest is selling helicopter not giving away their technology. If anything they refuse to sell to China. By late 90 China has extensive experience reverse engineering Dauphin Helicopter. It was not until late 90 is the development start in earnest by then the industrial base of China have improve considerably.

Kamov is specialist in counter rotary helicopter and WZ 10 is not;
The Pratt Whitney Canada gas turbine power the wz10 prototype and not Russian engine. If Kamov designed the WZ 10 they will use Russian or Ukrainian engine because that is what they are familiar with

People often forget the lesson of history . During Sino Russo break in late 60 The Russian took every single blue print for weapon assistance program and tore it apart and leave the Chinese holding the bag.
You think with that kind of experience they will slavishly beg the Russian again?

Wikipedia has good background on WZ 10
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The colour revolutions prevented the purchase of attack helicopters from Eastern Europe in 1990 and 1991; Bulgaria and Russia rejected Chinese offers to purchase the Mil Mi-24.

To fill the gap in the short term, the Chinese attempted to procure a license to manufacture Mil Mi-28s; the deal fell apart in 1994.

This left the indigenous program. In 1990, or 1991, the Armed Helicopter Developmental Work Team (武装直升机开发工作小组) was formed to develop a new medium helicopter design, as opposed to basing the new design on the light helicopters then in service. The 602nd and 608th Research Institutes started development of the 6-ton class China Medium Helicopter (CHM) program[2] in 1994. The program was promoted as a civilian project, and was able to secure significant Western technical assistance, such as from Eurocopter


We have video of the interview with the chief designer of WZ 10 and He flatly reject the unfounded rumor that Either Russia or the West help China

Design

Chief designer of the WZ-10 was Wu Ximing (吴希明) of the 602nd Research Institute, one of the Chinese top scientists involved in the 863 Program. Wu had earlier participated in the designs of the armed version of transport helicopters Z-8A and WZ-9. The WZ-10 is the first Chinese helicopter conceived of using paperless design, and the all-electronic/online design enabled the design work to be completed within a year. In order to complete the necessary development, the 602nd Research Institute and CAIC had jointly built a new engineering design center, industrial simulator, aircraft engine ground test center, fatigue laboratory, and rotary test platform (nicknamed as Iron Bird Platform, 铁鸟台). In the end of 2001, the final test was completed on the full-scale rotary test platform, paving the way for test flights.
 
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kyanges

Junior Member
This is from a post in 2007 on these forums. The guy claims to have worked on the project as well. He's even got that nice image concept image we're seeing again on the slides from Mikheyev's presentation.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/wz-10-thread-17-2879.html#post73336

kamov company carried out the followings works:
it is
- a structurally-power chart
- arrangement
- weight calculation
- aerodynamics

The Chinese side gave the sizes of equipment and weapon, type of engines (T-700), type of cannon (Am-23), amount of members of crew and requirement to the aerodynamic chart

Kinda fits what Sergei Mikheyev said doesn't it? Kamov did some designing, but after that, the Chinese handled the leg work.

Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.


Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This is from a post in 2007 on these forums. The guy claims to have worked on the project as well. He's even got that nice image concept image we're seeing again on the slides from Mikheyev's presentation.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/wz-10-thread-17-2879.html#post73336



Kinda fits what Sergei Mikheyev said doesn't it? Kamov did some designing, but after that, the Chinese handled the leg work.

And you trust internet posting? Anyone can say anything on internet and you blindly believe it mind boggling.

The posting offer generality with no specific what it mean arrangement, weight calculation what is engine T700? you mean GE T700 but WZ 10 never use T700 A lot of BS . And anyone really work on secret project will sign confidentiality agreement and if this guy blurted on internet he will get fired for sure.

Don't even think of using GE T700 China is subject to embargo. I don't think China is dumb. This day you don't do weight calculation anymore. You model your helicopter in 3D and program calculate the weight distribution and center of gravity.

Anyway those design are preliminary design meaning concept design that has no bearing to final product. the rotor, radar, engine, weapon are all Chinese

Kamov worked on the preliminary design at China’s request in 1995. “Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China,” Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, “was accepted for development,” he adds.
 
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