Taiwan´s ROCAF wants to buy 66 F-16C/D Block 52

Totoro

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I have to disagree with some things said here lately. First of all, air supremacy is key to taiwan's defense. While long term taiwan is doomed anyway, if one wants to concentrate just on short term and wants to spend money the best way possible - investing in air supremacy would be a wise choice. Orions and subs are fine and all that, but if buying that is going to mean there will be less money to go around for new planes/missiles/sams - it will be a horrible waste. Rumored 66 new f16s would be great, if properly equipped, and it should be of greatest importance for taiwanese armed forces.

That being said, planes are no good if they can't get up in the air. I do hope (and expect, really) that if situation starts getting hotter taiwan has a operational plan to disperse the airwings around the island, operating from at least 20 or so bases, unlike peacetime 4-5 base count. Actually, something a la harrier or even jsf would be perfect for taiwan to endure the initial missile strikes from china. Sure, it'd require many more ground crewmen, it'd mean more money spent on upkeeping such dispersed network of airfields but ultimately it might pay off very handsomly.

But i digress. Taiwan does have 3 main types of planes today. We could look at them as complete systems - with their weapons, or just planes themselves. While in the former example i might agree that f16 with amraams might have a certain edge, it cant be said that your average taiwanese f16 is best air to air plane on taiwan. Lets forget about future orders of amraams. (Though they are sure to come) With 120 in inventory, and knowing their f16s can guide two amraams simulaneously, i would expect that usual air to air load for a taiwanese f16 is: 2 amraams, 2 sparrows, 2 sidewinders. That'd be enough for some 60 planes, with remaining 80 or relying solely on sparrows. It is also possible that the 60 planes would be very lightly armed, with just amraams and perhaps wingtip sidewinders - for hit and run attacks, leaving the sparrow armed f16s to do combat from closer ranges.

It is also my opinion that mirages are to be used exactly the same way - long range hit and run. Mirages arent as good for dogfighting anyway, their radards are better than f16s, they can guide up to 4 micas simultaneously and can carry at least 6 of them on any given mission, with plenty of micas left in storage. It is therefore clear to me that mirages would, in fact, be taiwan's premier air to air assets, as long as they can avoid close range combat.

Also, given the low amraam inventory, even the IDF might have a better chance in long range air to air than f16, given that the inventory of sky sword 2 is continuously rising and is counted in few hundreds. While quality wise it may or may not be as good as mica and amraam it would seem prudent not to place it any lower than aim120-a models. And that, coupled with 120 planes each carrying 2, some 4 such missiles - would be a force to be reckoned with.

OR screw the air to air, just maintain a numerous and widely dispersed awacs fleet which would be somehow directly integrated with SAM network - then invest in vast number of mobile sam launchers. That way at least there'd be less IFF problems. If it flies - its chinese. :D
 
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Deleted member 675

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Totoro said:
I do hope (and expect, really) that if situation starts getting hotter taiwan has a operational plan to disperse the airwings around the island, operating from at least 20 or so bases, unlike peacetime 4-5 base count.

Totoro, I'm not sure what you're refering to exactly. Taiwan has something like 10 air bases on the island itself, operating its best fighters out of 6 of those - 2 more for the F-5s. Well at least that's what I thought the situation was. When the F-5s are retired, there would be more room for moving other planes there.

Another reason why the F-16 purchase would be a good idea is that although it wouldn't change much now (given they won't be delivered for a couple of years), they'll be needed when the F-5s and some of the IDFs are retired. Without replacements the ROCAF would be short on planes, and although a modified IDF may well be available it doesn't seem to have an engine upgrade (and thus is not that desirable).
 
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Totoro

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according to
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and
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taiwan operates its fighters from 6 bases (one with f5, one with mirages, two with idf and two with f16) plus one small detachment of idfs at makung air base. Taouyuan airbase used to also operate fighers, f5s, but that ended in 2005.

Now while in peacetime conditions its cheaper to have less bases, i seriously do hope that taiwanese have complex plans to disperse those planes into 15-20 bases each operating not more than a squadron. Also, looking at lists of squadrons, it would appear usual taiwanese squadron numbers around 20 or so planes, maybe 18 being operational.
 

adeptitus

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Violet Oboe said:
All the other so called friends and allies (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Egypt) get only degraded crap for which they have to pay a hefty price. The saudi F-15-S is simply a completely impotent ´Strike Eagle´without effective missiles and the israelis keep on laughing about the egyptians lunacy of buying more than 200 old-block F-16 without enough short range AAM´s for self defense. Pakistan did not even get her already paid F-16 since the paks were not obedient enough regarding their nuke program.

The Saudis initially wanted 24 F-15F's, the US counter-offered with 72 F-15XP (F-15S), which was a better deal. It also brings total number of RSAF F-15's to over 120, well above the 1980's Congressional 'cap" of 60 F-16's for Saudi Arabia -- an upset for Israeli lobby.

For Egypt, I'd suggest reading the 1st paragraph here:
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And subsidized items here:
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It's hard to beat "free". Also, UAE got F-16 E/F block 60 with AESA radar, though they had to pay a lot of $ for them.


Vlad Plasmius said:
The big one is that Taiwan's own long-range AAMs are not even comparable to those of modern air forces. The IDF is very slow in comparison to most modern fighters. In general it is just not that capable of a fighter. Albeit, a fighter's a fighter. However, a fully-armed F-16 is probably worth about 10 IDFs in combat.

The IDF is reciving a modernization update:
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Though it's not as powerful as the F-16, after the upgrade it can carry 4 x TC-2 BVR missiles, anti-radiation missiles, or 2 anti-ship missiles. So it at least have decent offensive capability.

IMO, 2-seat version of the IDF would prolly make a good jet trainer alternative to the AT-3.
 
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According to the China Times, the US would give Taiwan JDAM as part of the F-16 purchase. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet here.
 

tphuang

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According to the China Times, the US would give Taiwan JDAM as part of the F-16 purchase. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet here.

yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the planes that's the big issue here. It's the fact that offensive package is being offered.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the planes that's the big issue here. It's the fact that offensive package is being offered.

Offensive package? Taiwan already has Laser guided bombs (albeit in small numbers) so I don't know why this purpose would cause any abnormal complaints from China. I don't think AMRAAMs would be considered as "offensive", as they are incapable of hitting land targets.
 
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Deleted member 675

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Offensive package?

Yeah, it's not really "offensive" in as that it would be a threat to China. Taiwan's armed forces are only ever going to be used in self-defence - even the HF-IIE would only be used if China attacked.
 

oringo

Junior Member
Yeah, it's not really "offensive" in as that it would be a threat to China. Taiwan's armed forces are only ever going to be used in self-defence - even the HF-IIE would only be used if China attacked.
Just for the sake of argument, up until the early 1990's, Taiwan's military doctrine has been to attack the communist China and "take back" the mainland.

OTH, I have also seen some recent news that Taiwan's DoD was drafting a "preemptive strike plan" if China shows "intent" to attack Taiwan, where the HF-IIE would be the main weapon against Chinese strategic targets.
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
if you don't consider precision strike munitions "offensive", I don't know what the hell you do consider as such.
 
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