South East Asia Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Re: ASEAN military news

jackliu said:

Ok, let me summarize this post, keep comparing Vietnam to China "China did it, so can Vietnam" "China <insert accomplishment>, under <insert historical background> so can Vietnam" I mean... please, this is getting embarrassing.

And please, find the direct quote of me saying Vietnam lacking population, I never even mention population whatsoever, you are the one going on and on about population, and since I didn't say anything about population, therefore in your mind I must be saying "Vietnam lack population right" I mean it is in your mind, so it must be true.

Oh and yes, Swedan again, thank you very much, Sweden, an European nation in Northern Europe is the only country that is similar to Vietnam therefore we must use Sweden to compare to Vietnam, and out of all the hundreds of nations on earth which have purchased weapon from USA/Russia are all of course by default very different from Sweden, and therefore different form Vietnam, and therefore only Sweden can be compared to Vietnam because Sweden build their own jet fighter, while hundreds of others didn't, so we cannot use that as an example to compare to Vietnam. And yes, you are reading this and see there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, I mean come on, Sweden and Vietnam, they are basically the same you know, just they have more in common than US and UK right? Because Sweden build the Griffin, so I guess that makes them brother in your mind. While all other nations on earth is not allowed to be compared to Vietnam.

OH and of course, thank you again for answer my prayer, more personal attack, "childish" this time huh? I expected more.

OH and of course, as expected you are not responding to any of my point directly, but instead just repeating what you have said over and over again if you have nothign to reply. So I will bring up this point again.

So please, let us contine on your logic that "China did it, so will Vietnam" But this time, let us expand more on this

"So what if <insert nation> is <insert excuse>, China was <insert excuse> when they were developing <insert weaponry system>"


Let's be fair, let's not leave Vietnam out of it, I have a list of nations that can plug into that formula, I want to start with Ethiopia, and what you got against Ethiopia?

Oh and as for data, let us see how is "Vietnam is doing pretty well economically"

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Notice the "Vietnam is doing pretty well economically" ranked 57 out of 191, yes I can see they are doing well.

But, to be fair, you have mentioned Vietnam populations as an advantage many times, and me, being so insensitive just ignore that, so I want to say sorry, and let's take this population advantage into GDP consideration, so let's compare GDP per capita

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Notice the "Vietnam is doing pretty well economically" is ranked 141 out of 191

As for your accusing of me saying Vietnam is "not capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system" You do know this is a retarded accusation right? Because ALL nations are earth is capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system, but come up with your own version of AK-47 is NOT the same as coming up with your own Kilo submarine. So I have said this before which you have ignored, designing an AK-47 is not on the same level as designing an Su-27. But if you want to argue that any weapon system qualifies, that if you can design one weapon system, therefore you can design any weapon system... then I really have nothing to say.

Again... I NEVER said Vietnam is "not capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system", all I am saying is Vietnam is lacking behind in technology, it will be almost impossible for them to catch up, even if they pour all of their effort into R&D, chances are they will still come up with inferior products, because the technology leaders will have more resources and they will keep improving their system.

Or you know what? Let's play this game again. "So what if <insert nation> is <insert excuse>, China was <insert excuse> when they were developing <insert weaponry system>"


Show me that all of those country are "not capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system"

Azerbaijan, Angola, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Laos, Libya, Mali, Madagascar, North Korea, Romania, Serbia, Syria, Uganda, Yemen, Zambia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belarus, Burkina Faso, Chad, Congo, Czech Republic, Finland, Georgia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq , Israel, Kyrgyzstan , Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Poland, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Turkmenistan, Yemen, Zimbabwe.

Let's play this game again, in my last post I predicted 4 things that you would post in this post.
1. China did it, so can Vietnam.
2. Only Sweden is allowed to be comped with Vietnam, and all other nations are not.
3. Personal attacks, name calling.
4. Ignore the issue as much as possible while repeating what you have said over and over again.

So for your next post, I predict you will do these following this.
1. China did it, so can Vietnam
2. Further explaining why Sweden is unique qualified to compare to Vietnam while all the nations on earth that have not produce their own weapon system are not not qualified.
3. Of course, more personal attacks
4. Ignore the issue as much as possible while focus on point 1-3
5. Refuse to play the "So what if <insert nation> is <insert excuse>, China was <insert excuse> when they were developing <insert weaponry system>"

6. Totally ignore Ethiopia, which I have high hopes on being the world next major weapon producer.

Click to expand...

Haiz...

I already explain to you why Vietnam is unlikely to produce their own significant military hardware due to historical reason, their lack of technology base, lack of technology, lack of population, lack of industry, lack of money, and yet, you keep giving me example of China did this and China did that and therefore Vietnam will do this and Vietnam will do that, but I want to tell you something.

Click to expand...

Or maybe that is not written by you?

I say Sweden only as an example to show you that even a small nation with not quite a big population (yes, I say smaller population) can achieve things that are great, I didn't say that ALL nations with a small population could do that... which in actual fact, they can, if they are properly managed.

And... how many times have you repeat what you have said with no references or links whatsoever, but I took the trouble to provide you and people in this forum with some links and references which I dig from the net, saying that THERE IS a research and developement effort, plus research and developement fruit and products. However, you keep on steering away from that basic fact and stick on attacking me. Then you want to bet... oh... tell me, how adult like that is? And tell me this,

By please, by all means, keep us updated on Vietnam military development, keep us updated on their new super high tech, super secret submarine/ fighter jet/ warship programs. I can already see the day they can produce everything on their own, where they don't need to purchase anything from anyone, and when they are among the super rich nation on earth along side with India, and look down on the helpless little poor China and being the ruler of the plant earth. Looking forward to seeing that, keep up updated please, I am sure you are right on this my friend.

Click to expand...

Which adult would speak of something like that in a civilized debate on any issue?

Instead of keeping civil in your arguement you become more and more aggressive, despite my trying to reason with you.

So far, all my replies are to what you have said - Vietnam, then you said India as a pure buyer, which I tell you is not true, as they are going into join venture with other nations too. ALL of that is in response to what you have stated.

Now suddenly u want me to answer to comparism of other nations too? COME ON, you want to do research on those, do it yourself and stop coming in here and flame me in the hope that I do your research for you.

And... I don't see 57 out of 191 is bad or anything. Why don't you elaborate more... why is 57 bad?

And now... who is coming out with retarded accusation? Haiz... I say, they have a R&D base, they have don't. I show you some links that they built their own gunboats, yes those are base on drawings by a third country, but they are still fruits and proof of their capability. The Vietnamese also successfully achieve in manufacturing an important component for the Scud missile fuel.

So by your logic, it is only good that R&D came up with stuff like very advance submarines, fighters, destroyers? If that is the case, then there really is nothing else to talk about.

I am getting pretty tired of your game, pal. First you say Vietnam, then India as a pure buyer (or user), now you want me to look into Ethiopia, and I think if I answer that, you would come out with other nations too.

Finally, let me shared with you some facts,



(this article show how similar both nations is taking in civilian sector and that Vietnam is doing well in her economy)

(this article too).

And refer to all my other links for some R&D effort, manufacturing capability and some R&D fruitions of Vietnam.

I would like to see how you link Ethopia to China then, and when you managed to do that, then we will talk about Ethopia, or any other country.

Finally, a good friend of my who see this thread, was telling me to refrain myself from any further personal attacks on you. Okay, I heed his advise and I apologise for the personal attacks on you. I just hope to have a civilize debate on the matter.

Re: ASEAN military news

The discussion is getting off topic and to heated..This thread shall be closed until 1300 GMT tomorrow to allow for cooling off.



bd popeye super moderator

Re: ASEAN military news

Thread open.

Knock off the useless arguments and personal attacks. It is tiresome & not in the spirit of this forum.

bd popeye super moderator

Re: ASEAN military news

rhino123 said:

Haiz...



Or maybe that is not written by you?

I say Sweden only as an example to show you that even a small nation with not quite a big population (yes, I say smaller population) can achieve things that are great, I didn't say that ALL nations with a small population could do that... which in actual fact, they can, if they are properly managed.

And... how many times have you repeat what you have said with no references or links whatsoever, but I took the trouble to provide you and people in this forum with some links and references which I dig from the net, saying that THERE IS a research and developement effort, plus research and developement fruit and products. However, you keep on steering away from that basic fact and stick on attacking me. Then you want to bet... oh... tell me, how adult like that is? And tell me this,



Which adult would speak of something like that in a civilized debate on any issue?

Instead of keeping civil in your arguement you become more and more aggressive, despite my trying to reason with you.

So far, all my replies are to what you have said - Vietnam, then you said India as a pure buyer, which I tell you is not true, as they are going into join venture with other nations too. ALL of that is in response to what you have stated.

Now suddenly u want me to answer to comparism of other nations too? COME ON, you want to do research on those, do it yourself and stop coming in here and flame me in the hope that I do your research for you.

And... I don't see 57 out of 191 is bad or anything. Why don't you elaborate more... why is 57 bad?

And now... who is coming out with retarded accusation? Haiz... I say, they have a R&D base, they have don't. I show you some links that they built their own gunboats, yes those are base on drawings by a third country, but they are still fruits and proof of their capability. The Vietnamese also successfully achieve in manufacturing an important component for the Scud missile fuel.

So by your logic, it is only good that R&D came up with stuff like very advance submarines, fighters, destroyers? If that is the case, then there really is nothing else to talk about.

I am getting pretty tired of your game, pal. First you say Vietnam, then India as a pure buyer (or user), now you want me to look into Ethiopia, and I think if I answer that, you would come out with other nations too.

Finally, let me shared with you some facts,

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(this article show how similar both nations is taking in civilian sector and that Vietnam is doing well in her economy)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(this article too).

And refer to all my other links for some R&D effort, manufacturing capability and some R&D fruitions of Vietnam.

I would like to see how you link Ethopia to China then, and when you managed to do that, then we will talk about Ethopia, or any other country.

Finally, a good friend of my who see this thread, was telling me to refrain myself from any further personal attacks on you. Okay, I heed his advise and I apologise for the personal attacks on you. I just hope to have a civilize debate on the matter.

Click to expand...

Ok, time to summarize and translate your jabrish again

1. Still comparing Sweden to China, while totally ignore others, pointing the similarity of Sweden to Vietnam, aka population while ignore everything else, and again, ignore the hundred of other nations that imported and yet never produced their own military hardware with small population

But HEY!!!! Sweden did it, therefore we must use it to compare it to Vietnam, while totally ignore Azerbaijan, Angola, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Laos, Libya, Mali, Madagascar, North Korea, Romania, Serbia, Syria, Uganda, Yemen, Zambia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belarus, Burkina Faso, Chad, Congo, Czech Republic, Finland, Georgia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq , Israel, Kyrgyzstan , Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Poland, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Turkmenistan, Yemen, Zimbabwe.

2. PERSONAL ATTACK!!!! DING DING DING DING DING!!!!! oh boy, you have not disappointed me in this AT ALL, let see, last time you call me childish, this time, call me as "not adult" or "civilized", you are trying so hard as to dig up old points to make your point, but somehow you still have not explain to me that trying to paint me as this "uncivilized" "childish" guy will prove the point that Vietnam will became like China.

You said "So by your logic, it is only good that R&D came up with stuff like very advance submarines, fighters, destroyers? If that is the case, then there really is nothing else to talk about."

But please remember you said this, when I said it is stupid for Vietnam to spend billions to develop produce their own advanced hardware such as jets, and sub and warships, which will be inevitably inferior when they can just purchase on their own. And you responded by saying.

"And why would producing their own jets, sub and ships be stupid for them? It is always good to do their own production, might not be feasible now, but no body can look into the future. If not for the Western embargoment and the break down of relationship between Soviet Union and China, I believe China at that time will continue to buy, and R&D effort will be very minimal. So this can be true in Vietnam case."


Need I remind you how this argument got started, one person find that Vietnam is importing Kilo sub from Russia, and he said Vietnam might go to the rout of China and develop their own weapons, and since the article is on Kilo sub, so it is obvious he means one day Vietnam might achieve the ability to produce major weapons such as Kilo and jet fighter, I am pretty damn sure he was NOT talking about one day Vietnam can produce their own version of AK-47.

But now it seems I have point how to you how unfeasible that Vietnam to produce their own major system because I quote myself "it will be almost impossible for them to catch up, even if they pour all of their effort into R&D, chances are they will still come up with inferior products, because the technology leaders will have more resources and they will keep improving their system." (which you have totally ignored) It seems you can't argue with that statement so now you want to argue that any weapon system is a weapon system. Which is a total contradiction to your original statement that you think Vietnam would "producing their own jets, sub and ships"

3. And lastly your whole original point is that “China did it, so can Vietnam” This is actually the MAIN THEME of your first 5 posts, it now it seems absent I wonder why you have totally dropped in this point and now solely focusing on the merit of Vietnam itself, which is NEVER the purpose of this argument in the first place. As for research and development, how many time have I said "vietnam have no research and developement effort", let me see... I said it 0 times. But I guess in your mind I said it so it must be true. You want to make it seems any and all development = development, and now I point out that how unlikely they are to produce their own jet or sub, you want to change the subject as R&D does not mean advanced military hardware, because I guess for you able to produce AK-47 on your own is consider to be "capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system"

You know I have a confession to make, I am actually a gun nut in real life, I have about 2 dozen firearms, I even belong to a few gun clubs, we have some very smart people in there that can just fix any problem with any firearm in their own garage, and I bet if you give them enough money, yes just money only, they can come up with their own firearm all from nothing, they can design their own bullet, the barrel, firing mechanism, magazine, bolt and everything, and they can do it under 3 month. So I guess by your definition they are "capable of doing their own research and coming up with homegrown system", so I guess by this logic, they are on the same level as Vietnam, I mean, a weapon system is a weapon system, an AK-47 is an weapon system, an Kilo submarine is also a weapon system, since if you think Vietnam can produce any weapon system and qualify as weapon system, then my gun club buddies are on the same level as the nation of Vietnam!!!!!!

Ah why am I not surprised you want to talk about 57 out of 191 is not that bad, while totally ignore the 141 out of 191 on that list which include the population factor which you cherish so much in your last half dozen post as a big advantage, but now when taken population into consideration it make Vietnam look very bad so I guess let’s ignore it by all means, I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact that 57/191 sound a lot better than 141/191? But yes you are right 57 is not that bad, only that nations such as Peru, Kazakhstan, Algeria, Pakistan, Czech, Egypt, Nigeria, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia are all rank higher, and I guess by your argument that GDP wealth = weapon development, then I guess Peru, Kazakhstan, Algeria, Pakistan, Czech, Egypt, Nigeria, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia should all be weapon producer by now right? But yes by all means, don't even mention GDP per capita, because it 141/191 looks very bad.

So you are tired of me because I bring out other countries besides Vietnam and the good old Sweden huh? I wonder why, is it because those nations are just comparable with Vietnam as Sweden, and yet they produced NOTHING of significance, so you can't explain that or unwilling to accept that, therefore you want to dismiss it as much as possible while totally focus on Sweden as the only nation that are allowed to compare to Vietnam. I am sure me and everyone else who is reading this see absolutely no hypocrisy in this.

Ok, the game again

In this post I have successful predicted 4 out of 6 correct responses from you.
1. Further explaining why Sweden is unique qualified to compare to Vietnam while all the nations on earth that have not produce their own weapon system are not qualified.
2. Of course, more personal attacks
3. Ignore the issue as much as possible while focus on old post and repeat what you said.
4. Refuse to play the "So what if <insert nation> is <insert excuse>, China was <insert excuse> when they were developing <insert weaponry system>"

It is interesting that you moved away from "China did it, so can Vietnam" which is actually your MAIN THESIS of this debate, but let is not ignore it, I want to help you to get back to the basics, let’s talk more about “China did it, so can Vietnam” in your next post, and lastly I want to thank you for not ignoring Ethiopia, the world's next major weapon producer. I have high hopes for that beautiful place, and while we are at it I think besides Ethiopia, Azerbaijan, Angola, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Eritrea, Laos, Libya, Mali, Madagascar, North Korea, Romania, Serbia, Syria, Uganda, Yemen, Zambia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belarus, Burkina Faso, Chad, Congo, Czech Republic, Finland, Georgia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq , Israel, Kyrgyzstan , Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Poland, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Turkmenistan, Yemen, Zimbabwe. Are all on the verge of achieving major weapon producer status as well,

Because just like Vietnam they import, just like Vietnam I quote you. "And why <insert nation> would producing their own jets, sub and ships be stupid for them? It is always good to do their own production, might not be feasible now, but no body can look into the future. If not for the Western embargoment and the break down of relationship between Soviet Union and China, I believe China at that time will continue to buy, and R&D effort will be very minimal. So this can be true in <insert nation’s> case."

Please expand on this more, how that the only correlation of your argument is that China imported, China then produced, therefore Vietnam imported, so Vietnam can produce, but don’t left out the other 200 nations on earth as well. Oh and yes, so far my prediction of personal attack have been dead on 100% correct of the time, and please don’t disappoint me by more personal attack in the next post,
We already establish that jackliu is being <insert insult> have direct correlation of Vietnam producing weaponry systems. I believe this scientific study won the Nobel’s peace prize in 2009.

Re: ASEAN military news

Re: ASEAN military news

This pissing contest is getting ridiculous.

Let's propose something more neutral. Vietnam currently is too poor for a small country, since small countries can achieve things only if they have the money. On the other hand, poorer countries have to be huge to use advantage of scale, such as the old USSR and China. Vietnam currently has neither. Indeed 90 million is a huge population base but it is still too small to accomplish anything, especially considering its current national grand plan is to get rich, hence military technology development is put aside.

Red China did made a lot of impressive achievements in the early days, but that was spanning from the Korean War to the height of the Cold War and especially the Sino-Soviet Split, all of which threatens the existence of the CCP and its government. The spending on military and related areas make up of 30-50%+ of the national income. It was a cutthroat situation at that time. You either copy and innovate like there's no tomorrow, or there really is no tomorrow.

Another thing was the technology at the time was still relatively primitive, semiconductors barely existed and sophisticated modern tech just begun to develop. It wasn't as hard for the Chinese to catch up. The gap wasn't so big back then. The use of abacus to calculate nuclear explosion is a good example. It was still an almost inhuman feat, but it was achievable. But if you look at today's situation, to start anything, you would need tens of billions of investments and cooperation between thousands of institutes and universities; Vietnam simply doesn't have that kind of capability.

The worst problem with Vietnam is that it doesn't have a solid foundation, they simply have nothing. If they want to build anything, they would have to follow the Korean's foot path, that is buying everything from abroad and assemble it in Vietnam. That is also why Sweden was able to build the Gripen or Japan able to build the F2. Gripen's engine is from GE, targeting from BAE, radar from BAE/GEC, canon from Mausser, and all the missiles are American. There's literally no major parts that's made in Sweden. It is the same for the current IT sector. Everything says "Made in China" on the shell, but all the vital components inside, especially the semiconductors, are all made in Japan, US and South Korea. The Chinese factories are just assembling them.

Hence in the coming two to three decades, Vietnam can't really do anything. Even if they start building a foundation like China did in the 50's, it would still take another 30 - 40 years to see fruition.

Re: ASEAN military news

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

This pissing contest is getting ridiculous.

Let's propose something more neutral. Vietnam currently is too poor for a small country, since small countries can achieve things only if they have the money. On the other hand, poorer countries have to be huge to use advantage of scale, such as the old USSR and China. Vietnam currently has neither. Indeed 90 million is a huge population base but it is still too small to accomplish anything, especially considering its current national grand plan is to get rich, hence military technology development is put aside.

Red China did made a lot of impressive achievements in the early days, but that was spanning from the Korean War to the height of the Cold War and especially the Sino-Soviet Split, all of which threatens the existence of the CCP and its government. The spending on military and related areas make up of 30-50%+ of the national income. It was a cutthroat situation at that time. You either copy and innovate like there's no tomorrow, or there really is no tomorrow.

Another thing was the technology at the time was still relatively primitive, semiconductors barely existed and sophisticated modern tech just begun to develop. It wasn't as hard for the Chinese to catch up. The gap wasn't so big back then. The use of abacus to calculate nuclear explosion is a good example. It was still an almost inhuman feat, but it was achievable. But if you look at today's situation, to start anything, you would need tens of billions of investments and cooperation between thousands of institutes and universities; Vietnam simply doesn't have that kind of capability.

The worst problem with Vietnam is that it doesn't have a solid foundation, they simply have nothing. If they want to build anything, they would have to follow the Korean's foot path, that is buying everything from abroad and assemble it in Vietnam. That is also why Sweden was able to build the Gripen or Japan able to build the F2. Gripen's engine is from GE, targeting from BAE, radar from BAE/GEC, canon from Mausser, and all the missiles are American. There's literally no major parts that's made in Sweden. It is the same for the current IT sector. Everything says "Made in China" on the shell, but all the vital components inside, especially the semiconductors, are all made in Japan, US and South Korea. The Chinese factories are just assembling them.

Hence in the coming two to three decades, Vietnam can't really do anything. Even if they start building a foundation like China did in the 50's, it would still take another 30 - 40 years to see fruition.

Click to expand...

Thank you very much for explaining it in the details, but you are not being neutral with this, it looks like you are on my side.

As I have said before, if I were Vietnam I would not waste my time and money and develop everything on my own like China does, when the existing hardware are so much more effective and cheaper on the market.

However with that being said, it is possible for a small nation like Vietnam to find a few areas and speclize in them, for example Urkine have the T-84 tanks, which they got the technology base from Soviet Union. South Korea is the world's largest ship producer, so they can make some impressive warships. Germany is very good at submarines, which they got this tradition all the way from WW1.

But Vietnam really have no technology base or historical background in any of them, when you think of Vietnam military tradition, guerrilla warfare is the only thing come to mind.

I mean it is possible for Vietnam to pick one weapon system to develop and pour all of thier reosurces into this, and MAYBE, just MAYBE in another 30-50 yeras they can come up with something on their own that is half decent. But even this is no promise, because as they improve, the technology leaders will improve as well, except that they already have better technology and more money to invest.

Re: ASEAN military news

Fine... whatever, I will not (although I have all evidence and refences) attempt to reflute whatever you have stated in your above posts, but I am getting tire of having to keep defending my points from your twists and turns, and I simply didn't have the energy to having face whatever allegences or accusations you have for me. You can write whatever you want, be it that I chicken out, I coward out or whatsoever from now on, all I have to say now is,

"I have stated my points and obviously none of you - Jackliu or whoever would accept whatever I have written and came up with things that I have already stated in reflute. I came up with links and references, all you do is BLA BLA BLA and keep saying that I have not answer any of the things you have stated. And instead, I am the one that keep having to defend myself."

Instead of risking another shut down of this otherwise fine thread, I am going to ignore you and your meaningless challenges. I am tire of needing to explain myself over and over again, then you came out with fresh new countries each time, while wanting me to do researches on all these countries when obviously I have already tell you my points.

So I am not going to go through the whole debates again, over and over and over again, when I see there is no end.

All I can say for now is, "you analyse that Vietnam cannot and/or would not do this or that, while I go quite the opposite. Let us just agree to disagree."

I am going to end with saying, "Good day, and have a nice day ahead."

Re: ASEAN military news

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

The worst problem with Vietnam is that it doesn't have a solid foundation, they simply have nothing. If they want to build anything, they would have to follow the Korean's foot path, that is buying everything from abroad and assemble it in Vietnam. That is also why Sweden was able to build the Gripen or Japan able to build the F2. Gripen's engine is from GE, targeting from BAE, radar from BAE/GEC, canon from Mausser, and all the missiles are American. There's literally no major parts that's made in Sweden. It is the same for the current IT sector. Everything says "Made in China" on the shell, but all the vital components inside, especially the semiconductors, are all made in Japan, US and South Korea. The Chinese factories are just assembling them.

Click to expand...

I agree with most of what you have say. But I am to point out that R&D don't just let you achieve building of an entire system from ground up with locally.

I have already pointed that out in one of my post,

Technology can be bought and integrated, not all R&D must come from building something right from scratch... taking China for an example, DO you seriously think their engineer could come up with the Flankers variant without any other assistance - quite sadly, dispite all the fantasy you have, they couldn't, they build the flankers out from kits from the Russian first, learning along the way, then came up with their own variants... that is one way to get technology.

Click to expand...

And I have also pointed out in one of my links that the Russians are providing assistance to the Vietnamese in building of naval missiles (or something like that). I think all these pointed to the Vietnamese are slowly (very slowly) getting up from pure buying of entire systems to system integration like what the Indians are also doing and what the Chinese had already done.

In my point of view R&D's fruition was not just by building any thing totally locally.

Re: ASEAN military news

rhino123 said:

I agree with most of what you have say. But I am to point out that R&D don't just let you achieve building of an entire system from ground up with locally.

I have already pointed that out in one of my post,



And I have also pointed out in one of my links that the Russians are providing assistance to the Vietnamese in building of naval missiles (or something like that). I think all these pointed to the Vietnamese are slowly (very slowly) getting up from pure buying of entire systems to system integration like what the Indians are also doing and what the Chinese had already done.

In my point of view R&D's fruition was not just by building any thing totally locally.

Click to expand...

Another fallacy is that joint license production will make you self-sufficient, there is no way in hell the superior country will give everything it have to the weaker country in this arrangement, look at India, look at China, both agreed to assemble Flanker within their own land, India did EXACTLY what Russian wanted them to do, China did not, they break it down, they reverse engineering anything they can, in the end look what have they achieved? Now look at India, how is their Flanker program? Or rather, how is Indian indigenous program overall? If they are self sufficient from join development, why are they purchasing Rafale from France? P-3 from US? Aircraft Carrier completely refitted in Russia, and even their new stealthy frig and destroyer, all the component, the weaponry, the sensors are almost 100% foreign made. Just because you can produce you own is not enough, I mean India can produce their LAC (half of the parts are made in USA), which is no better than a Mig-21, or their Arjun tank, but at the same time they choose to mass import T-90s from Russia.

People always make fun of China being stealing and copying other, but you know what? If you truly want to develop your own technology base and self sufficiency, stealing and copying is the ONLY way to go. You can produce 99% of the component on your own, but if the crucial part is that 1% which is being supplied to you by Russia, there is nothing you can do about it. I remember a while back there when China was still licensing producing Su-27, there was a news that a Russian man was arrested by Russia spy agency for smuggling parts of Flanker to China, so what does that tell you? China is already flying the licensed production Su-27 in Chinese sky, but yet they still need to smuggling Su-27 parts from Russia???

Same thing goes for all US allies as well, South Korea, Japan, Europe etc... even if they can produce their own independent weapons, but half of the component is still from US, the engines the radars. I can argue that there is only 3 nation on earth that are truly sufficient in weapon production, US, China and Russia.

If you want Vietnam to join that club, I am going to say the chances are slim to none.