A very stark look at the power of concentrated propaganda.
Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation
- Thread starter Strangelove
- Start date
Do the general population know how the world is outside of NK like in SK or China? If they do, it seems reforming would be an easier peaceful task than for the population to wake up to that their country has been a lie for the past 40 years.
Why surprised? Lithuania has no choice because they're weak puppets and scared of Russia. The people (not politicians, but it's people being polled) don't care about China except with regard to Russia. Hungary has a choice (being middleman with Russia) yet they actively chose racism.
It's really easy for China to get its military across to stop any Shenanigans by Iran. Whereas Turkey is a very important part of signature BRI project of rail transportation to Europe
the middle path does not go through Russia or Iran. Please look it up. It goes through Caspian sea. The problem with Russia is a lot of European customers don't want their cargo to go through Russia.
Turkey imports a lot of tools from China
I'm not the one who said China needs to be closer to Greece because China is more popular there. My belief of importance of Turkey comes from looking at Turkey as a power that can tilt the whole of West Asia and North Africa to China's favor. Turkey has already participated in SCO as observer state. Do you think Greece will do that?
Your Asia Times article doesn't mention tools. The data doesn't differentiate between final products and intermediate products.
Caspian sea is not solely by land. It requires transshipment by low capacity inland shipping rather than highly efficient sea shipping. If Europeans don't want transits of Russia they're free to pick an oceanic route.
No it isn't easy to stop Iran because of the fundamental challenges of operating in the Persian Gulf that even the US acknowledges. But the point is that Iran can resist others from closing the Straits of Hormuz for free, something that Saudi Arabia can't. And neither can Turkey costlessly close the Bosphorus at will.
Iran imports pretty much the same thing. And if volume matters, Russia imports more in every category except chemicals yet you have a problem with Russia.
It would be nice to have Turkey on side but not necessary and not at the cost of alienating old friends. Saudi also hates Turkey, why risk alienating them?
And btw, here's updated Greece data including politicians. Greece is the most pro China country in the EU.
Far more importantly, Turkey has near 0 interest in actually cooperating with China. Turks in Turkey hate China. China has done nothing to deserve their hate either, so it is 100% their fault.
I don't understand lmao why do you advocate for cooperation with countries that hate your guts even at the cost of huge concessions, while those countries compete with you, rhetorically hate you and sponsor separatists. Meanwhile you want to fuck over countries that don't compete with you, have never harmed China (at most not provided benefit, but not active harm), advocate for you when they can and sell resources to you. You want to alienate important partners like Saudi, Iran, Russia, etc to suck up to Turkey and India of all countries?
Luckily Chinese leaders don't think like you.
Very few people are against it in a vacuum. Even improved relation with US and Japan are good. But often there is a cost to courting a country. India is far stronger than Pakistan, but even less reliable. If one must pick one I still take Pakistan because despite India is richer they are hostile to business. Ideally if I can have both India and Pakistan I take both, but nothing is free. That is... If India want to improve relation in first place. Cant force them.
In case of Turkey I see good common ground to gain. What would be the cost to gain the common ground I have no clue. Worth a try for sure.
I have no idea. I would imagine the majority don't, considering the Orwellian levels of brainwashing, surveillance and control the state exerts over every aspect of one's life. Logically delusion on such a scale requires that the vast majority don't know what's really going on, otherwise the whole thing would fall a part.
Nobody there is going to follow Turkish leadership. The days of the ottoman empire are long gone. There's just one country in West Asia that sees Turkey as a leader: Azerbaijan.
Turkey's real cultural and linguistic connections are with central Asia. It's quite important to keep them out of central Asia so that central Asian countries remain facing east not West.
I think you're overestimating the importance of rail connections to western Europe. The middle east and central Asia group of countries is estimated to have a GDP of 4.8 trillion last year, the EU was only at 16.6 and the European market is much more closed and hostile and competitive. We speak a lot about American decline, but the real decline is happening in Europe. BRI is not just about getting to western countries, it's much more about connecting non western countries with China.
well, China already has saudi arabia, egypt, algeria, iran, iraq, uae, syria .... on its side. The only major powers left in the region are Israel and Turkey. Once it gets Turkey in its corner, it has the entire region under its control.
As for rail with Europe, the goal of that is to leave Europe more dependent on China and more deindustrialized. Everything that China builds with BRI is with the end goal of strengthening its own economic and industrial positioning. Over the course of my adult lifetime, We've gone from a situation where Europe was a dominant power in the world over China to one of increasing irrelevance. Do you think this happens in vacuum?
I gave you two links, lol. it's not my fault you didn't look into the first one
| Turkey Imports from China | Value | Year |
|---|---|---|
| $9.03B | 2022 | |
| $9.03B | 2022 |
now comparing that to Iran
so China's export of machineries and electrical equipment to Turkey alone was twice as much as all of its exports to Iran
yet, that's the path BRI has taken. BRI railway passage does not go through Iran. Please read up on this
China can easily destroy Iran. Let's be clear here
I have no problem with Russia. Russia is a great market and keep getting better
I agree that Turkey relationship cannot be at the risk of alienating Saudis. But given the entire rapprochement in the region, there is no reason why the 2 countries can't get along. After all, Saudis have achieved peace with Iran. And these countries are all negotiating a peaceful transition for Syria.
still in the negative ratings
What are these huge concessions that I'm offering Turkey? How is Turkey competing against China?
hmm, how am I sucking up to Turkey and India? How is having better relationship with India or Turkey going to hurt relationship with Saudi, Iran & Russia? lol, you are drawing a lot of conclusions here.
You see, Iran has no other choice. So China doesn't have to treat it well. It just needs to offer Iran the bare minimum and that's already better than what everyone else is offering Iran.
China needs to work with any non-aligned country that's interested in multi-polarism. multi-polar world needs to be China's main goal until that's achieved.
The huge concession you gonna give is Greece as to get turkey. This will definitely alienate Saudis and Egypt as they try to sway Greece to join them.
Iran is north Korea of middle east. Iran security is china security. You can do anything Iran don't like but you must not do anything that harm Iran
The reason to get Greece over turkey is not only get Greece itself, it's to get Western EU countries more favorable to china and skeptical to US as US support turkey against china.