Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
you are completely overstating Iran's power and its leverage in Iraq. Were you around back in 2007 when America was deeply trapped in Iraq? If not, then don't pretend you understand why America got out of Iraq and why GWOT was the greatest gift given to China.

Pakistan right now is more important for China's security going forward than Iran could ever hope to be. If there was a war between Pakistan and Iran, Iran would get crushed. If there was a battle between PAF and RuAF, PAF would most likely win. So be very careful to dismiss the military power of Pakistan.

India has the world's 5th largest GDP. Pakistan by itself completely neutralizes India.

And you are here complaining about Pakistan having trouble paying back $60B in loan (I'm not sure what the exact amount is)
Putting PAF above RuAF is quite the claim.

PAF have 4 tankers, all sold by Russia, there are no alternative parts suppliers since Ukraine War.
RuAF has 20 tankers, all domestic.

RuAF has 1200 fighters, all long ranged, all domestic, all 4th gen or better.
PAF has 500, all short ranged, out of which 220 are obsolete 3rd gen (Mirage 3, Mirage 5, J-7).

RuAF has 120 bombers with 2000-5000 km range cruise missiles and 200 KT yield if nuclear equipped (Kh-55, Kh-101).
PAF has 0 bombers, 1 air launched cruise missile with 600 km range (Ra'ad 2) and only 5 KT yield if nuclear equipped.

RuAF can strike Pakistani airbases, PAF can't strike Russian airbases. RuAF has the range to choose where the fight occurs, PAF doesn't.

Russia has continuously won wars throughout its history. It beat the shit out of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It crushed the Hungarian and Czechoslovakian uprisings. It lost Afghanistan but did so with a literal 1:100 kill ratio only counting Soviets, 1:50 counting Afghan collaborators. For comparison, this is better than US during Vietnam - 1:40 counting US forces, 1:1 counting South Vietnam collaborators.

PK was humiliated by
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, one of their largest urban centers, then it lost half its population and territory in 1971. BTW, in
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. Pakistan still can't crush the Balochistan uprising or the Pakistani Taliban.

IN doesn't even take PK seriously anymore.

Let's compare PK vs. NK even. NK and PK have comparable GDP per capita, but
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,
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,
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. NK has ICBMs with proven 250 kT max yield, PK doesn't even have IRBMs and only has proven 40 kT max yield.

Don't be angry at me. All I said is objective facts and history.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Pakistan has massive potential. But until they solve their internal problems (economy, civil unrest) it will always be underwhelming as a military power really. Their economy also mostly exports to the West and this is one of the reasons why they can be a liability as they can be pressured into doing what the West wants.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Of course there was some Iraqi resistance by itself, but without Iranian assistance the costs to America might have been a lot lower
Looks like you were not around back in those days.
I'm not so sure about Pakistan's military power compared to Iran, sure, they have a better air force, but do they have the will to fight? Their performance in past wars and inability to even control all of their own territory properly isn't inspiring confidence. If they're such a strong military power, why can't they deal with Baluchi and pashtun separatists? At least Iran doesn't have any regions which aren't under full control of the central government

You can tell from how India is moving troops from the border with Pakistan to the border with China that even India itself isn't taking Pakistan seriously
Pakistan cannot control how India moves its troops. But in every recent encounter, PAF has embarrassed IAF. Pakistan not only has better air force but also better ground force.

Now in terms of working with PLA, they've had plenty of training with PLA. They even have many of the military hardware that PLA has. Which means in the event of a conflict, if PLAAF has to operate out of a Pakistani military base, it would be able to do so. It simply cannot do that from an Iranian base. The sustainment just isn't there.

Putting PAF above RuAF is quite the claim.

PAF have 4 tankers, all sold by Russia, there are no alternative parts suppliers since Ukraine War.
RuAF has 20 tankers, all domestic.

RuAF has 1200 fighters, all long ranged, all domestic, all 4th gen or better.
PAF has 500, all short ranged, out of which 220 are obsolete 3rd gen (Mirage 3, Mirage 5, J-7).

RuAF has 120 bombers with 2000-5000 km range cruise missiles and 200 KT yield if nuclear equipped (Kh-55, Kh-101).
PAF has 0 bombers, 1 air launched cruise missile with 600 km range (Ra'ad 2) and only 5 KT yield if nuclear equipped.

RuAF can strike Pakistani airbases, PAF can't strike Russian airbases. RuAF has the range to choose where the fight occurs, PAF doesn't.

Russia has continuously won wars throughout its history. It beat the shit out of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It crushed the Hungarian and Czechoslovakian uprisings. It lost Afghanistan but did so with a literal 1:100 kill ratio only counting Soviets, 1:50 counting Afghan collaborators. For comparison, this is better than US during Vietnam - 1:40 counting US forces, 1:1 counting South Vietnam collaborators.

PK was humiliated by
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, one of their largest urban centers, then it lost half its population and territory in 1971. BTW, in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Pakistan still can't crush the Balochistan uprising or the Pakistani Taliban.

IN doesn't even take PK seriously anymore.

Let's compare PK vs. NK even. NK and PK have comparable GDP per capita, but
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
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. NK has ICBMs with proven 250 kT max yield, PK doesn't even have IRBMs and only has proven 40 kT max yield.

Don't be angry at me. All I said is objective facts and history.
PAF will have 20 J-10Cs and over 150 JF-17s pretty soon. It will have modern AESA radars on them as well as PL-10/15. It also has 70+ F-16s. It's not an air force designed for power projection. Its goals are just activities within its border and maybe a few hundreds km beyond.

That's 250 4th generation aircraft with BVR capabilities. probably 50 of which has AESA radars & can launch PL-10/15. These J-10Cs and JF-17 block 3s would be at distinct advantage vs IAF su-30s as well as Russian su-30/35s. This has been demonstrated in PLAAF's own exercises. Even the block 50 F-16s and block 2 JF-17s would be at an advantage against Su-27SM/Su-30.

If you listen to ShiLao/Yankee Podcast, they will tell you PAF gets better training than RuAF. Those trainings with PAF are the most useful foreign training that PLAAF gets.

I don't know what history has anything to do with this. RN was the greatest navy back in the days. Who is afraid of them now? I can only look at what each air force has and make projections based on that.

Today, PAF is a very capable air force. It's air defense systems have a lot of more recent Chinese systems. It also comes with a bunch of somewhat advanced Erieye AWACS and cheap ZDK03.

In terms of practical usefulness in a westpac conflict, Pakistani military is really useful.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Looks like you were not around back in those days.

Pakistan cannot control how India moves its troops. But in every recent encounter, PAF has embarrassed IAF. Pakistan not only has better air force but also better ground force.

Now in terms of working with PLA, they've had plenty of training with PLA. They even have many of the military hardware that PLA has. Which means in the event of a conflict, if PLAAF has to operate out of a Pakistani military base, it would be able to do so. It simply cannot do that from an Iranian base. The sustainment just isn't there.


PAF will have 20 J-10Cs and over 150 JF-17s pretty soon. It will have modern AESA radars on them as well as PL-10/15. It also has 70+ F-16s. It's not an air force designed for power projection. Its goals are just activities within its border and maybe a few hundreds km beyond.

That's 250 4th generation aircraft with BVR capabilities. probably 50 of which has AESA radars & can launch PL-10/15. These J-10Cs and JF-17 block 3s would be at distinct advantage vs IAF su-30s as well as Russian su-30/35s. This has been demonstrated in PLAAF's own exercises. Even the block 50 F-16s and block 2 JF-17s would be at an advantage against Su-27SM/Su-30.

If you listen to ShiLao/Yankee Podcast, they will tell you PAF gets better training than RuAF. Those trainings with PAF are the most useful foreign training that PLAAF gets.

I don't know what history has anything to do with this. RN was the greatest navy back in the days. Who is afraid of them now? I can only look at what each air force has and make projections based on that.

Today, PAF is a very capable air force. It's air defense systems have a lot of more recent Chinese systems. It also comes with a bunch of somewhat advanced Erieye AWACS and cheap ZDK03.

In terms of practical usefulness in a westpac conflict, Pakistani military is really useful.
If PAF was so good how come they continuously get humiliated by even India?

Russians intercept Ukrainian ballistic missiles and cruise missiles all the time, Pakistan is 0 for 2 on both from Iran and India.

you can give them all the hardware in the world but it doesn't change their fighting spirit. In 1965, just 3 years after China humiliated India, Pakistan had more tanks than India, and India had much poorer morale due to their defeat in 1962, yet still wiped Pakistan out and were on the verge of conquering Lahore away. I would even postulate that Pakistan gave India their confidence and aggression back.

You know what they remind me of? 1930s KMT. Full foreign backed gear (US and Nazi German) but incompetent, history of defeat, weak economic growth, no signs of industrialization and falling far behind their main rival (Imperial Japan) despite the huge help given to them.

烂泥扶不上墙.
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pakistan has massive potential. But until they solve their internal problems (economy, civil unrest) it will always be underwhelming as a military power really. Their economy also mostly exports to the West and this is one of the reasons why they can be a liability as they can be pressured into doing what the West wants.

Pakistan has a comprador ruling class that is impossible to get rid of. Their national capitalistic class is under formed and unable to compete politically due to under developed industry, industry remains under developed due to comprador policies and corruption.

A common illness among ex-colonial countries, very very hard to cure by themselves.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Registered Member
If PAF was so good how come they continuously get humiliated by even India?

Russians intercept Ukrainian ballistic missiles and cruise missiles all the time, Pakistan is 0 for 2 on both from Iran and India.

you can give them all the hardware in the world but it doesn't change their fighting spirit. In 1965, just 3 years after China humiliated India, Pakistan had more tanks than India, and India had much poorer morale due to their defeat in 1962, yet still wiped Pakistan out and were on the verge of conquering Lahore away. I would even postulate that Pakistan gave India their confidence and aggression back.

You know what they remind me of? 1930s KMT. Full foreign backed gear (US and Nazi German) but incompetent, history of defeat, weak economic growth, no signs of industrialization and falling far behind their main rival (Imperial Japan) despite the huge help given to them.

烂泥扶不上墙.
What are you talking about? In the recent confrontation between paf and iaf, paf shot down multiple iaf aerial assets and suffered no loss. What more can Pakistan do?

is Pakistan expected to intercept missiles fired at it during peace time? That seems kind of unreasonable.

To sum things up, people now blame Pakistan when India moves troops to China. And also blaming Pakistan when missiles are launched against it during peace time in lightly guarded areas.

Is Pakistan to be blamed when pla got so strong so quickly that it forced a reevaluation of Indian security priorities? Is Pakistan to be blamed when it gets attacked by missiles during peace time when it’s just looking to solve various economic issues?

saying that you support Russia and Iran is one thing, but making these ridiculous arguments is quite something else.

I trust in recent results and shilao & yankee reporting of China/pakistan exercises vs something that happened in the 60s. Why does what happened 60 years ago even matter when it comes to contemporary warfare?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
What are you talking about? In the recent confrontation between paf and iaf, paf shot down multiple iaf aerial assets and suffered no loss. What more can Pakistan do?

is Pakistan expected to intercept missiles fired at it during peace time? That seems kind of unreasonable.

To sum things up, people now blame Pakistan when India moves troops to China. And also blaming Pakistan when missiles are launched against it during peace time in lightly guarded areas.

Is Pakistan to be blamed when pla got so strong so quickly that it forced a reevaluation of Indian security priorities? Is Pakistan to be blamed when it gets attacked by missiles during peace time when it’s just looking to solve various economic issues?

saying that you support Russia and Iran is one thing, but making these ridiculous arguments is quite something else.

I trust in recent results and shilao & yankee reporting of China/pakistan exercises vs something that happened in the 60s. Why does what happened 60 years ago even matter when it comes to contemporary warfare?
because what happened 60 years ago is representative of mindset and institutional culture unless radical reforms happened, and radical reforms did not happen. After 1965, did Pakistan learn from its mistakes and avoid losing again? What followed was 1971, Siachen, Kargil. Not only did they get more soldiers killed and lose more assets than India, they simultaneously failed to achieve their strategic goals and either lost territory or failed to gain territory. That is a timespan of 40 years.

at some point, a historical track record of defeat is no longer a coincidence. Arabs and Qing have that reputation for a reason.

if performing well during training with PLAAF means PAF is good, then IAF must be good too since they train with USAF at Red Flag and USAF pilots praise Indians. Or maybe exercises have limited predictive value, are more for learning tactics, but the most important aspect are strategic considerations like logistics.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
If PAF was so good how come they continuously get humiliated by even India?

Russians intercept Ukrainian ballistic missiles and cruise missiles all the time, Pakistan is 0 for 2 on both from Iran and India.

you can give them all the hardware in the world but it doesn't change their fighting spirit. In 1965, just 3 years after China humiliated India, Pakistan had more tanks than India, and India had much poorer morale due to their defeat in 1962, yet still wiped Pakistan out and were on the verge of conquering Lahore away. I would even postulate that Pakistan gave India their confidence and aggression back.

You know what they remind me of? 1930s KMT. Full foreign backed gear (US and Nazi German) but incompetent, history of defeat, weak economic growth, no signs of industrialization and falling far behind their main rival (Imperial Japan) despite the huge help given to them.

烂泥扶不上墙.
Well tbh why would they intercept an Iranian strike on anti SCO terrorists? If they did that, it would be treason against their own bloc.

The rest of your post is just talking about old history. Pakistan today is strongly trained and equipped, militarily at least. Are they even near Russia in terms of fighting capability? Lol no. But among the middle east, they are in the top tiers of having a semi functioning military, along with Iran and Israel.

And its not really a contest between Iran and Pakistan, they do different things and have different roles.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
because what happened 60 years ago is representative of mindset and institutional culture unless radical reforms happened, and radical reforms did not happen. After 1965, did Pakistan learn from its mistakes and avoid losing again? What followed was 1971, Siachen, Kargil. Not only did they get more soldiers killed and lose more assets than India, they simultaneously failed to achieve their strategic goals and either lost territory or failed to gain territory. That is a timespan of 40 years.

at some point, a historical track record of defeat is no longer a coincidence. Arabs and Qing have that reputation for a reason.

if performing well during training with PLAAF means PAF is good, then IAF must be good too since they train with USAF at Red Flag and USAF pilots praise Indians. Or maybe exercises have limited predictive value, are more for learning tactics, but the most important aspect are strategic considerations like logistics.
This doesn't make any kind of sense. PLAN 10 years ago could rarely find USN submarines and had trouble with JMSDF submarine. PLAN today has no problem finding JMSDF submarines and increasingly are able to detect USN submarines.

PLAAF training of 15 years ago was garbage compared to today

Basing your judgement on something that happened 60 years ago doesn't make any sense.

I base my judgement on what happened recently.

As for training, I can only base my comments on what Shilao/yankee podcasts have constantly said. They consider PAF to be well trained and RuAF not to be. The flight hours for PAF are also what you would expect. They performed very well against IAF the last time real live fire happened. I don't think you can really expect more out of them.

From all indications, PAF has been a very good partner and keen learner of how PLAAF utilizes its aircraft and conduct missions.

if we consider PLA training/tactics/joint warfare as the golden standard outside of NATO, then PAF would be a lot closer to PLAAF than other friends of China.

they are in the top tiers of having a semi functioning military, along with Iran and Israel.
Pakistan air and ground force is much better equipped and trained than Iran. it's not particularly close.

Iranian leadership themselves should think about why they have not forged closer military ties with PLA
 
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