Self Propelled Gun/Rocket Launcher

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
What are the ranges of the optics on these tiny toy like planes and the flight range of these planes? How jam resistance are their communication system? If the opponent has ELINT aircrafts, how likely the command node will be taken out?
The Supercam S350 can fly up to 240 km range. Radio link range is up to 100 km, but can be doubled with a repeater drone.
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Some of those drones transmit data from deep inside Ukraine without a repeater by using a 4G modem. With a Ukrainian SIM card. Unless Ukraine wants to take its own 4G network offline, this will continue to work.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
SPGs have the advantage of being able to adapt to a fluid front, which is what the Russians are encountering over the Donetsk regions, like Pokrovsk and Torestk. Survivability however, thanks to drones, moving along the road has become an increasing risk.

Towed guns are also cheap. But more importantly, towed guns like SPGs, are suddenly in vogue because of guided ammunition, with drones lasing targets. Suddenly an old arty piece or vintage SPG becomes a huge threat in the battlefield.

Since this is the PLA thread, we saw an article maybe 2016 talking about how PLA would extend the life of towed 152mm, 130mm, and 122mm in the Western region due to the availability of guided munitions making it cost effective to maintain them in reserve. However since then they have been fully replaced by the PCL-181 and 161, so we see that PLA has decided the advantages of SPG cannot be matched by towed guns for their purposes/context.

By no means can we say this is a universal determination for all militaries, but the PLA itself has made it's choice. I think for most modern militaries, SPG is going to be preferred except in special contexts like AH-4 and M777 which have the requirement to be transported by Helicopter sling.
 

Builder

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hello everybody. In this discussion about spg does anyone know if the PLA use guided artillery rounds, like Krasnopol, for their 122 mm spg? Or some kind of sensor fuzed rounds for the same 122 mm? It is well known that the 120 mm mortar can fire sensor fuzed munitions, so why not for the 122 mm?
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Hello everybody. In this discussion about spg does anyone know if the PLA use guided artillery rounds, like Krasnopol, for their 122 mm spg? Or some kind of sensor fuzed rounds for the same 122 mm? It is well known that the 120 mm mortar can fire sensor fuzed munitions, so why not for the 122 mm?

GP122 laser guided round has been shown at arms shows for export. No reason to think the PLA is not using the domestic version.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The Supercam S350 can fly up to 240 km range. Radio link range is up to 100 km, but can be doubled with a repeater drone.
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The UAV may be able to fly 240km or transmit video for 100km, but I doubt it can do both at the same time.
Some of those drones transmit data from deep inside Ukraine without a repeater by using a 4G modem. With a Ukrainian SIM card. Unless Ukraine wants to take its own 4G network offline, this will continue to work.

This can be solved by multiple ways. Blocking Russian IP is one, turning off cell towers in the front is another one.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This can be solved by multiple ways. Blocking Russian IP is one, turning off cell towers in the front is another one.
There is just one problem with that. The Ukrainian Armed Forces themselves are using the 4G network to communicate with each other.
As for blocking Russian IPs that can be solved with a tunnel which forwards traffic from some other IP to a Russian one.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
There is just one problem with that. The Ukrainian Armed Forces themselves are using the 4G network to communicate with each other.
As for blocking Russian IPs that can be solved with a VPN.
Yes, Ukrainian had to because they don’t have good alternatives. NATO and Chinese forces will not have that problem.

Tam is arguing SPG is worst than towed artillery due to the existence of small UAVs as a universal fact. I just want to point out the Ukrainian theatre examples may not apply to other theatres because the belligerents lacks high-end systems other players have.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Close to the battle line the Russians can use the radio link which has 100 km range. To keep comms and direct receipt of information up currently requires either a repeater which doubles the link range or the use of a 4G modem with a Ukrainian SIM card. So you would need to block 4G comms like 100-200 km behind the front.

The Supercam drone can also operate away from the radio link range, you basically do a preprogrammed mission path, and then when the drone comes back into link range you retrieve the stored information.

Some Russian drones can also have their mission path reprogrammed while deep in enemy territory. For this they use the Russian Gonets satellite network.
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Gonets is not fast enough to transmit video feeds, it is like 64 kbps, but good enough to get the drone position and control the drone remotely.
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The Supercam drone can also operate away from the radio link range, you basically do a preprogrammed mission path, and then when the drone comes back into link range you retrieve the stored information.

Some Russian drones can also have their mission path reprogrammed while deep in enemy territory. For this they use the Russian Gonets satellite network.
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Gonets is not fast enough to transmit video feeds, it is like 64 kbps, but good enough to get the drone position and control the drone remotely.
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Not good enough for time-sensitive targets like SPGs.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Remember a really basic Shaheed is estimated at $10K, whilst the standard version is $20K?

Even if you halve the cost of a Pantsir/Iron Dome, it still comes to $25K

===

You're missing the point.

Yes, the cost of the thing being defended justifies air defence.

But China can always build more low-cost missiles to overwhelm a smaller number of SAMs which are more expensive and slower to build.

So the defenders won't have enough defensive SAMs to prevent that the target from being destroyed.

===

Let me spell out a graphic example to illustrate the point.

Say a US airbase has 25 stealth fighters worth a total of $2500 Mn.

So it is defended by 200 Iron Dome SAMs @ $50K each. That costs $10 Mn.

From the Chinese perspective, it just makes sense to build 300 Shaheed @ $20K each. That's only $6 Mn, which is 40% less that the Iron Dome SAMs. So China will have at least 100 Shaheed available when the US runs out of SAMs. I'm assuming the defending SAMs are 100% effective, which you know is being charitable.

So let's say the US doubles the number of Iron Dome SAMs to protect that valuable airbase. So that's 400 SAMs @ $50K which cost $20 Mn. So yes, it's worth spending $20 Mn to protect an airbase which houses $2500 Mn of aircraft.

But the logical response is for China to launch an extra 200 Shaheed. So that's 500 Shaheed @ $20K each = $10 Mn. And again, the Chinese side have 100 Shaheed left at the end to attack the airbase.

But China has only spent $10 Mn on Shaheed, compared to the US which has to spend $20 Mn on Iron Dome. China now has a 50% cost advantage, up from 40% previously.

Can you see how this response and counter-response will just keep continuing, where China keeps building more and more Shaheeds, until the US runs out of expensive SAMs?

And then that valuable airbase with 25 US stealth fighters gets destroyed.
First of all, we don't have a concrete number on the price of the Shahed. The number is going lower and lower but we don't have any evidence to support those low numbers. According to the only semi-confident numbers we have, Russia got them for $193k each. They expect the price to decrease to $49k after full localization.
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Second of all, Tamir isn't the cheapest SAM possible. It is Israeli (not a cheap country, at all), is active-radar guided, it has kinematics good enough to defend a town from a 155 mm shell. A Shahed is an incomparably easier target than a 155 mm shell.

Third, if we talking about the defense of something as small and valuable as an airbase then SPAAG, EW and lasers are in the question. You could easily ring fence an airbase with these assets. EW is particularly important to mention here because getting something EW resistant is expensive.

Lastly, Shahed isn't effective munition at all. It has a warhead of 50 kilos and its accuracy is very meh compared to more expensive munitions. There are a fair number of videos of them hitting residential buildings, which I believe Russia wouldn't target knowingly. You could defeat Shahed-like munitions with just hardened aircraft shelters.
 
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