Self Propelled Gun/Rocket Launcher

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amchan

New Member
Registered Member
The fact is that the front in the Russo-Ukranian conflict is relatively stagnant, and towed guns are used because neither side can secure concentration deep enough for mobile artillery to demonstrate its full potential. Drones thrive in this environment as artillery remains dispersed and can be picked off outside of air defense and jamming zones. Additionally, neither side has the industrial base to develop countermeasures to common drone tactics and deploy them with mass. The drones used in this conflict are low-capability to the point that they should be able to be targeted by cheap AAA before they penetrate to the rear. In regards to the use of drone guided or directed artillery, the toll on immobile towed artillery is likely to be quite high
AndrewS said:
Remember this is the price because Russia was desperate for drones.

As a comparison, note how the price of artillery shells in Europe has also jumped 4x from 2000euro to 8000euro.

Plus the Chinese price is going to be a lot lower.




So what is the cheapest SAM possible?




Yes, a hardened aircraft shelter will defend against small warheads.

But remember that Shaheeds are the low-end cruise missile used against soft, fixed targets. And there are thousands of such targets.

Then you have the DF-17 (~$2Mn) and the CJ-10 (~$1Mn) which are the high-end missiles which would be used against a hardened aircraft shelter (~$4 Mn)

Again, in a competition between low-cost offensive missiles and expensive defensive hardened shelters, the missiles win.

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We have the CCTV7 newsreel on Youtube, where they take journalists to a factory capable of 1000 cruise missiles per day. This alone would be sufficient to deplete all the defensive SAMs.

That means China would have control of the medium and high altitude airspace, and could take out SPAAG, EW and lasers at its leisure.

You can boil it down to 2 scenarios.

1. If there aren't any air defences, the Shaheeds will target soft, fixed targets easily.

2. If there are still air defences, and a Shaheed is destroyed by a SAM, it will have done its job. The SAM costs a lot more than a Shaheed and those SAMs won't be available to shoot down aircraft or expensive cruise missiles.
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Shaheds can be detected far in advance and shot down using gunfire. That is what Ukraine has been doing and it seems to be at least partially effective. Any military with a decent industrial base can probably do far better, approaching 100% interception at least around vulnerable locations should be well within possibility.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
amchan said:
Shaheds can be detected far in advance and shot down using gunfire. That is what Ukraine has been doing and it seems to be at least partially effective. Any military with a decent industrial base can probably do far better, approaching 100% interception at least around vulnerable locations should be well within possibility.
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This is where the assumptions come into play.

The 1st Island Chain would be facing an effective blockade and the electricity grid likely destroyed. What industrial base or resupply is available?

And as noted previously, Shaheeds are the low end cruise missile capability.

Air defence guns have such a short range and have to be co-located with the final targets.

And any air defence units would merit the usage of high-end missiles like the DF-17 or HARMs
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
vincent said:
If UAV‘s communication system can reach 100km, then aerial jammers should work with that range too. Lancets can’t hit aerial targets.


each counter battery radar can be guarded by PGZ04A/95, PGZ09 or Type 625 SPAAG, or laser systems

We know little about Western and Chinese laser systems.

Ground based ELINT can locate emission sources over the horizon (for command nodes for UAVs that have ranges over 40km)?
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We have seen many times, EW and ELINT systems get taken out by Lancets. Not only that, but they were filmed by loitering drones above which indicate EW bubble doesn't operate past a ceiling and therefore does not provide silver bullet protection.


We have also seen counterbattery radars regularly get picked off by Lancets too. Even SPAGs like Gepard.


Aerial EW works best if it's between the enemy transmitter and the enemy receiver. If drone uses satellite array, like Baba Yaga carrying Starlink antenna, it's practically non jammable.

Real time feeds for tens and tens of kilometers, you use satellite or a system of relay drones. A good example is how a Lancet attacked a Ukrainian airfield, targeting parked Su-25. This happened three times already and the airfield is around 80km from the front. Note a second UAV is also recording the event.


For hundreds of kilometers you have to use satellite, like a Starlink antenna. These sea drones have a small Starlink array. These sea drones attack all the way to Sevastopol but control station is in Odessa. No wonder China is working on its Starlink analog and setting up satellite network.


So what did the Russians do? They retaliate. They sent their own drones circling and locating the sea drone base, then sends out target coordinates, and an Iskander lands on it.

Finally this shows you how vulnerable a vehicle is in the move by drones. The PZH-2000 is only doing what a SPG does. Shoot and Scoot. But a drone with thermal vision spots it on the road, tracks it, calls for Lancet drone, which attacks it and leaves it burning. This event happened recently, and similar events happens repeatedly, constantly, daily.

Lots and lots of cool lessons and tactics we can learn.

 
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by78

by78

General
A nice magazine scan of PCL-171s.

53911220591_3ed38e2043_k.jpg
 
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