Self Propelled Gun/Rocket Launcher

vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Tam said:
On top of that, Russia should be the gold standard of SHORAD in both quality and quantity, yet drones and UAVs continue to penetrate defenses with regularity. Ukraine, who inherited one of the best SHORAD forces from the Soviet Union, saw these forces depleted or decimated by UAVs, either by causing them to expend missiles against Gerans, or have AD units, from Strelas to S-300s, taken out by Lancets.
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Yes, Russian's ground-based air defense is tier-one, but their air force is tier-two at best. Their number of AWACs, ELINTs, aerial jammers and other combat support aircrafts is pathetic and they don't have EA-18G equivalent. In another word Russian air force can't provide protection to the ground force at all.
That's not the case with NATO or Chinese forces.
 
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gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
vincent said:
Yes, Russian's ground-based air defense is tier-one, but their air force is tier-two at best. Their number of AWACs, ELINTs, aerial jammers and other combat support aircrafts is pathetic and they don't have EA-18G equivalent. In another word Russian air force can't provide protection to the ground force at all.
That's not the case with NATO or Chinese forces.
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Tier two compared with what? Against other forces in Europe they are pretty well equipped.
Nearly all their fighters come with the Khibiny built-in. They also have the A-50U and the Tu-214R.
What they lack is numbers of high end platforms.
 
vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
gelgoog said:
Tier two compared with what? Against other forces in Europe they are pretty well equipped.
Nearly all their fighters come with the Khibiny built-in. They also have the A-50U and the Tu-214R.
What they lack is numbers of high end platforms.
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NATO as a whole. How many A-50U and Tu-214R they have?
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
vincent said:
Yes, Russian's ground-based air defense is tier-one, but their air force is tier-two at best. Their number of AWACs, ELINTs, aerial jammers and other combat support aircrafts is pathetic and they don't have EA-18G equivalent. In another word Russian air force can't provide protection to the ground force at all.
That's not the case with NATO or Chinese forces.
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Traditional air forces are completely irrelevant versus small drones. These are not unmanned aircraft. These are tiny toy like planes you can carry and assemble in the battlefield by hand.

Fighter planes are not the business of taking down these things. AWACS are not in the business of detecting or tracking these things either.




I am not referring to long ranged kamekaze drones like Mujins or Gerans that are used to strike cities and infrastructure. I am talking of the drones used in the context of taking out tanks, guns, APCs, and SPGs.
 
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vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Tam said:
Traditional air forces are completely irrelevant versus small drones. These are not unmanned aircraft. These are tiny toy like planes.

Fighter planes are not the business of taking down these things. AWACS are not in the business of detecting or tracking these things either.


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What are the ranges of the optics on these tiny toy like planes and the flight range of these planes? How jam resistance are their communication system? If the opponent has ELINT aircrafts, how likely the command node will be taken out?
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
vincent said:
What are the ranges of the optics on these tiny toy like planes and the flight range of these planes? How jam resistance are their communication system? If the opponent has ELINT aircrafts, how likely the command node will be taken out?
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Watch the vids. They have been operating for at least two years and have taken out thousands of vehicles on both sides, either directly, or by guiding other weapons to them.

Drones can operate anywhere from tree top height to beyond MANPAD range.

EW is only partially successful. Ironically, EW systems themselves gets taken out by Lancets. Even radars are taken out by Lancets.

Drones on both sides can occupy the air space at any given time. What's the point of using an AWACS when you can have hundreds of tiny portable drones on the screen at any time and with absolutely no way to tell which side they are on.

CAESAR SPG on the move crashes off road trying to evade a Lancet drone. The other drone is tracking the target and filming it. This gives you some idea of the reconnaissance abilities of these drones.

 
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vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Tam said:
EW is only partially successful. Ironically, EW systems themselves gets taken out by Lancets. Even radars are taken out by Lancets.
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Can't take out aircraft-based ELINT or EW platforms.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
vincent said:
Can't take out aircraft-based ELINT or EW platforms.
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Irrelevant. They are not meant for that. They can however, might show up over on an air base and send coordinates that will send a ballistic missile into a specific hanger. This is the most likely way the Russians will take out the F-16s Ukraine received, and they have used tactic times before.




This hidden HQ was scouted by a small drone behind enemy lines until it was determined there is enough evidence for a strike. The drone loitered long enough to record the strike and confirm results.
 
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S

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Tam said:
Watch the vids. They have been operating for at least two years and have taken out thousands of vehicles on both sides, either directly, or by guiding other weapons to them.

Drones can operate anywhere from tree top height to beyond MANPAD range.

EW is only partially successful. Ironically, EW systems themselves gets taken out by Lancets. Even radars are taken out by Lancets.

Drones on both sides can occupy the air space at any given time. What's the point of using an AWACS when you can have hundreds of tiny portable drones on the screen at any time and with absolutely no way to tell which side they are on.

CAESAR SPG on the move crashes off road trying to evade a Lancet drone. The other drone is tracking the target and filming it. This gives you some idea of the reconnaissance abilities of these drones.

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Towed artillery still needs a truck to move, still need to conceal the truck near the position.

Being separate gives a little more flexibility, but I agree with the other poster that the towed guns are used out of availability rather than preference.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
supersnoop said:
Towed artillery still needs a truck to move, still need to conceal the truck near the position.

Being separate gives a little more flexibility, but I agree with the other poster that the towed guns are used out of availability rather than preference.
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SPGs have the advantage of being able to adapt to a fluid front, which is what the Russians are encountering over the Donetsk regions, like Pokrovsk and Torestk. Survivability however, thanks to drones, moving along the road has become an increasing risk.

Towed guns are also cheap. But more importantly, towed guns like SPGs, are suddenly in vogue because of guided ammunition, with drones lasing targets. Suddenly an old arty piece or vintage SPG becomes a huge threat in the battlefield.

Artillery - Drone - Guided Shells, this is a game changer happening now.

M1 Abrams taken out by a Krasnopol. This is said to be fired from a MSTA-S.



Orlan-30 lases a convoy. A Nona SVK fires laser guided projectiles.



 
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