possible confrontation scenario with the US

according to a posted article from typhuang, the type 93 had reached the level of todays improved la, which isnt that impressive compared to seawolf. its redicoulous to think china cant better a 30 year old design.

china perhaps would let the sub free under the conditions chinese officers would be allowed to search it for any sensitive informaation obtained in its mission. its only fair that way.

MIGleader said:

according to a posted article from typhuang, the type 93 had reached the level of todays improved la, which isnt that impressive compared to seawolf. its redicoulous to think china cant better a 30 year old design.

china perhaps would let the sub free under the conditions chinese officers would be allowed to search it for any sensitive informaation obtained in its mission. its only fair that way.

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Which is why I said I wish I could read Chinese characters so I can read some of the neat stuff tphuang posts. The Russians themselves have alot of experience designing and fielding new sub technology. They came along way after the 'Walker' incidents. And their newest Akula-II's are said to be as quiet and may be a little quieter than the LA 688(I) subs at low speeds only. I'm talking 4 knots or less. For every knot above 5 knots the LA 688(I) significantly has an edge in quieting. It is said that 093 technology has been given alot of technical assistance by the Russians. Chinese previous HAN SSN is an extremely noisy SSN by comparison. Using deduction and reasoning here, I don't think 093 is going to be a caable in acoustic or sensors as a current FLT III LA 688(I). Russia's best design only equals LA class at low speed. China relies on Russian assistance for maritime technologies. Hello.

And BTW, I think 093 is going to be a good sub. But saying it's at an LA level is a pipe-dream until there is something substantial out there proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Back to the situation. China would have no right to board a US nuclear sub in international waters. Unless they wanted an ugly situation to arise.

Sea Dog

wish you could read chinese

the main sell point of the 093 will not be quietness but the gas coled reactorwitch gives it high speed ( also reduce noise )

lession learned from the kilo and song can also be applied especialy those in reduceing noise so its going to be much quieter

plus the 093 also has 16 lonch tube for the YJ-62 missile


PS russian subs are noise mainly beacause of poor propeller construction.
in he 80s after toshbia sold one of its milling machines to the soviets there was a great drop in the noise level of russian subs followed by a attempt to ban all toshbai product in the US

sea dog, you are so certain the chinese do everytrhing because iof the russians. but the gas cooled engine technology is something very unique to the 93, indegedously developed(with russian sicentists). russia is simply too poor to futher the technology, so china will be the sole user of this kind of engine.

darth sidious said:

Sea Dog

wish you could read chinese

the main sell point of the 093 will not be quietness but the gas coled reactorwitch gives it high speed ( also reduce noise )

lession learned from the kilo and song can also be applied especialy those in reduceing noise so its going to be much quieter

plus the 093 also has 16 lonch tube for the YJ-62 missile


PS russian subs are noise mainly beacause of poor propeller construction.
in he 80s after toshbia sold one of its milling machines to the soviets there was a great drop in the noise level of russian subs followed by a attempt to ban all toshbai product in the US

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Very interesting. But it remains to be seen whether this project is everything it's said to be. There's no doubt there is something advantageous in gas-cooled reactors. But so far, we haven't seen what it can do. Quieting is not just about how you cool your reactor. But it's about how you manufacture your propeller, how you operate your internal equipment, and how the internal engineering spaces are defined. (Trying to be vague here). So at this time, I don't know how you can claim a 093 to be at a level of 688(I). How the heck do you know? I don't know myself. But based on the experts, Chinese design history, Chinese reliance on Russian technological assistance, Russian assistance in conjunction with their own lags and problems, and such, you can deduce this yourself. While my interest is peaked, I have many doubts on the quality some here place on 093 at present. I think it's going to be a credible sub...no doubt. But not 688(I) level. I'm sorry, but nothing out there really points in that direction. And many point 093 at a Victor III level. The gas cooled reactor may give it added quieting, but I remain skeptical at this high a level.

sea dog, russian submarine technology is far ahead of what the red navy fielded. the red navy wanted ssbns, and it wanted them fast. so it hurried their construction, giving them speed and numbers in exchange for quieting and safety. but if 300 or so russian sub designers were hired for china, they could take their time to guarenty quality and stealth. it can bne argued that the la has superior interio equipment to the victor III, but the chinese have shown themselves capable of making better electronics than the russians.

MIGleader said:

sea dog, russian submarine technology is far ahead of what the red navy fielded. the red navy wanted ssbns, and it wanted them fast. so it hurried their construction, giving them speed and numbers in exchange for quieting and safety. but if 300 or so russian sub designers were hired for china, they could take their time to guarenty quality and stealth. it can bne argued that the la has superior interio equipment to the victor III, but the chinese have shown themselves capable of making better electronics than the russians.

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Well, if so, their fielded subs never have outclassed western SSN designs. Even now LA 688(I), Seawolf, Virginia, pretty much outclass anything in Russia's undersea arsenal. The Akula-II changes this a little though with the low-speed tactical comparisons. But even then 688(I) has more range in tactical speed in undersea warfare giving it more stealth at higher speed. In submarines, stealth is everything. 688(I) thusly has the advantage. If Russia cannot achieve what's in 688(I), I have my doubts about 093.

did u even read my article? i said russia could not field advanced subs do to cost, but russian designers can do quite a bit. stop with the A>B>C, cause everything china makes does not have to be behind russia.

MIGleader said:

did u even read my article? i said russia could not field advanced subs do to cost, but russian designers can do quite a bit. stop with the A>B>C, cause everything china makes does not have to be behind russia.

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Exacty! well stated. Remeber most help from russia today are just emport products like engines, Su-27s etc. Currently in terms of research, China is pretty much independent so dont think everything China has made came from Russia, that was in the past.

renmin said:

Exacty! well stated. Remeber most help from russia today are just emport products like engines, Su-27s etc. Currently in terms of research, China is pretty much independent so dont think everything China has made came from Russia, that was in the past.

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Well, both you and Migleader are correct about this. I'm not disputing that China can build some neat stuff on their own. J-10, JH-7, C-802, YJ-62, WZ-10, and Yuan SSK prove this point. I'm not disputing that. But some of these designs have significant Russian influence. And that's all I'm saying. In this regard, I'm assuming 093 is going to be a very capable submarine, but I just find it difficult to believe that they will surpass Russia's design specifications with their reliance on Russians. You do know that Russia has input into the 093..don't you?. And I do have to disagree with Migleader on this point only. That economics precluded Russians from fielding western equivalent capabilities. Look how much they sunk into the Typhoon, Sierra, Alfa, and Akula(Bars). The record here speaks for itself.