PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: ¦^��: Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Mind you, "completed" does not mean it's under construction. It just means that all of the resources needed have been acquired; it conforms well with China's pattern of building a generation, developing next generation, and researching two generations ahead.

Unlikely that they mixed up completion with getting all the resources in place. Most likely what he meant is the design phase is completed and it is ready going to the next stage of building the prototype. Which is exactly conform with the pattern of PLA weapon development. Assuming Type 95,96 is the third generation ,They should finish with building the prototype for type 95 and probably fitting type 96 now

 

[chuck731]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As the 2arty has never mated nuclear warheads to their missiles, I think PLAN SSBNs go on patrol without a single nuke on board. The JL-2 SLBMs are probably all conventionally armed with high-explosive. In training 2arty mate the warheads only after receiving a nuclear strike.

Uh, what is the point of carrying any missile at all if the missile would only have conventional warheads? Your missiles would be just as expensive and yet have no significant damage potential. Furthermore innocuous as these missile might be you would never dare launch it as no one else can be certain it had no nukes onboard, and so for lobbing a enormously expensive intercontinental firecracker you are inviting genuine nuclear retaliation

 

[rhino123]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Uh, what is the point of carrying any missile at all if the missile would only have conventional warheads? Your missiles would be just as expensive and yet have no significant damage potential. Furthermore innocuous as these missile might be you would never dare launch it as no one else can be certain it had no nukes onboard, and so for lobbing a enormously expensive intercontinental firecracker you are inviting genuine nuclear retaliation

Agreed, one of the main task of a SSBN was to provide a credible second strike capability for the host country. What type of second strike capability is that when all the missiles on the SSBN are fitted with only high explosive warheads?

 

[escobar]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Uh, what is the point of carrying any missile at all if the missile would only have conventional warheads? Your missiles would be just as expensive and yet have no significant damage potential. Furthermore innocuous as these missile might be you would never dare launch it as no one else can be certain it had no nukes onboard, and so for lobbing a enormously expensive intercontinental firecracker you are inviting genuine nuclear retaliation

Well, it's strange but that is what I think they are doing. China nuke are under the control of CMC. They don't even let 2arty use them in training. So if even 2arty can't have them for training, there is no hope for PLAN. This is why 2arty has became mainly a conventional missile force...

 

[no_name]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well second arty training often involves firing of missiles, as such I doubt they would put real nuke on the missiles.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Agreed, one of the main task of a SSBN was to provide a credible second strike capability for the host country. What type of second strike capability is that when all the missiles on the SSBN are fitted with only high explosive warheads?

There will be none from sea. SSBNs is the 3rd arm of the nuclear trifecta but the most critical element in nuclear deterence because by their very nature they are the hardest to find and destroy. If PLA SSBNs do not carry nukes then it would be a serious strategic mistake as the second strike capability is greatly diminished.

If PLAN's SSBN has to go back to base suddenly due to outbreak of some serious crisis or war to reload their tubes with nukes they will be very easily found and destroyed and this is assuming sub bases are still there and not been destroyed already in the initial first strike.

I think the article is somewhat accurate in a sense that while China obviously has the ability to build SSBNs and SLBMs they have yet perfected the SOPs and a bulletproof way to ensure SLBM are properly launch with the right security measures, authorization mechanisms etc in place. Do we even know if China's president has the equivalent of a 'nuclear football' like POTUS does?

 

[rhino123]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well, it's strange but that is what I think they are doing. China nuke are under the control of CMC. They don't even let 2arty use them in training. So if even 2arty can't have them for training, there is no hope for PLAN. This is why 2arty has became mainly a conventional missile force...

You do understand training and actual operation are totally different things right? Of course during training, you don't use real nuke or you will have nuke explosions all over the place when your 2nd Artillery started test firing of the missiles.

However, for the SSBN that are going to patrol, of course they would require real nuke, it act as much as a second strike platform but also as a deterrence for opposing forces, to tell them that, "I can still nuke you, if you dare to do something silly."

No one would really be that concern if Chinese SSBN is carrying only high explosive long range missiles, right?

 

[rhino123]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I think the article is somewhat accurate in a sense that while China obviously has the ability to build SSBNs and SLBMs they have yet perfected the SOPs and a bulletproof way to ensure SLBM are properly launch with the right security measures, authorization mechanisms etc in place. Do we even know if China's president has the equivalent of a 'nuclear football' like POTUS does?

Frankly... it is very strange in the sense that it would be top secret in any nation regarding their SOP in SSBN operation. How would that article actually know what is going on except for some assumptions and prediction which is most of the time thrown wayyyyyy off the mark. Secondly China's operation of the SSBN is not exactly new, having deploy the Han class from 1981. Although the Han class is not exactly world class and the missiles it carry is not really that long range, but by now, I would think that the Chinese would have already worked up a set of SOP for operating such as system in sync with the overall Chinese security strategy.

And... frankly whether the Chinese have the equivalent of a "nuclear football" or not, I think it is up to anyone's guess unless they came right up to disclose that information. And frankly was that even part of the SOP for the Chinese or not, we do not know, afterall, the Chinese might not even think that that system is good enough or fit into their strategy at all.

 

[no_name]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Are Chinese SSBNs under control of PLAN or directly under second artillery, or joint arrangement of some sort?

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The length of the hump and number of opinions did not change, but they did move the entire missile compartment 4 m forward, so the interior of 094 obviously changed. As for the placement of sonar, number/location of torpedo tubes, we won't know that until we get close up pictures. As for the other stuff, they may or may not be moved around.

Other than what you mentioned here, Kanwa's own speculation is that the missile changed from JL-2 to JL-2A. Which begs the question why moving forward 4 m would be better.

Moving the missile compartment forwards could also indicate a major change in engineering, maybe they switched to a new reactor design and/or added other changes to the sub's propulsion systems. Such a move would have the greatest potential in drastically improving the sub's quietness level.