PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

luhai

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

USN does put a SSN on the tail of every Chinese nuclear subs and even regular subs that go on patrol.

I think what Jeff stated is quite accurate. If Chinese SSN are too noisy and can't hunt down other nuclear submarines or to provide active protection of SSBN, then they will also be too noisy to provide do sea denial missions because other SSN will be able to easily detect them.

I don't believe USN is willing to tie down such large portion of the Sub fleet just to tail Chinese subs, in peace time. Though US have a large SSN fleet, they do have protect CVBGs, SSBNs, and perform special operations. Stations at every Chinese, Russian choke points and tail every sub might appear make sense at height of the cold wars, but right now, frankly it's just a waste of resources.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
¦^��: PLAN submarines Thread II

Can anyone translate the following? It was apparently from someone quoting a big shrimp, and he is apparently trying to reveal something through poetry so it can get past censors.

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When referring to the supposed weapons systems:

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nicky

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Your most precious asset you protect with the best you have, though others always might have something better. And don't forget, there are still people around who remember the times when a Japanese car was nothing but a joke.

PLAN already has a carrier and determined to have more. Have a look at major bases on Google Earth and you can easily read facilities for four carriers with the plans to double. Guided missile destroyers and frigates for carrier/strike group are already in mass production. Each carrier group requires a SSN.

PCR already has some SSBNs doing occasional patrols and determined to have more. Each SSBN on patrol requires a SSN. Production capacity for both boats and missiles sets the limit.
Recent updates in Google Earth coverage show dramatic expansion of solid rocket motor production facilities in PRC going on right now. Ballistic missile production will predictably double within couple of years. JL-2 is a most likely candidate for this expansion.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Currently USN operates 14 Ohio Class SSBN, down from 18 pre-2001, when they operated 18 at any given time 10-11 were deployed

Today around 8 are deployed at any one time, with 4-5 sailing in the Pacific region, this is being debated right now because they plan to build only 12 SSBN to replace the 14 Ohios as the patrol rate is dropping

They might even cut the number to 10 new build SSBN to replace the 14 Ohio Class which means saving money

UK and France also have deployed at any given time 1 SSBN, with 4 a piece, with one in re-fit, one in port and one on exercise’s, so really they deploy two SSBN each but only one conducts active nuclear deterrent patrol at any given time

Now if China establishes a fleet of 8 x SSBN, I would think they would at any given time have 4-6 SSBN deployed with maybe 2-3 on active nuclear deterrent patrol the rest doing exercises

The thing with US, UK and France is that they have a massive wealth of experience conducting these patrols during decades of Cold War, China is new to this game and hence it will be years before they can establish themselves as expert SSBN operators

When a SSBN is on patrol the opposite side try’s anything and anything to track and monitor the sub , and during the Cold War Royal Navy would routinely show the Soviets submarines that they were tracking them by giving them signals, it’s a move to show them you are operating your lethal ace up your sleeve but we can still see you, it’s a huge disappointment when a SSN or SSBN is detected and it’s really a unacceptable mistake by the captain , it’s a game of cat and mouse where one tests the capabilities of the other
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Good read. I find the last paragraph especially interesting. Not sure how true it is though.


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China Is Really, Maybe, Going To Do It This Time

July 31, 2013: U.S. intelligence agencies believe that China will finally start combat patrols of its SSBNs (ballistic missile carrying nuclear powered boat, also called "boomers") next year, something China has never done before despite decades of effort. This prediction comes despite Taiwanese intelligence officials revealing early this year that China’s Type 94 SSBNs had not yet been commissioned into service. But at the same time a Type 94 class sub was seen recently undergoing what appeared to be sea trials. Taiwanese officials also stated that the JL-2 SLBM (Sea Launched Ballistic Missiles) that the Type 94 is designed to carry is still undergoing testing.

It’s no secret that China is eager to actually send one of its SSBNs out on a combat patrol. And it’s not just because, to date, China has never been able to do this. America, Russia, Britain, and France have all done so and still do. The U.S. has had SSBNs going out with nuclear armed, and ready to fire, missiles for over half a century. What is going on with China? There appears to be a combination of technical and political problems. Some of these problems are no longer state secrets but are being discussed in the state controlled media.

What is known is that China has already produced two generations of SSBNs. In the early 1980s, the Type 92 SSBN was launched but had a lot of problems and never made it into service. It only went out for training in Chinese coastal waters. Only one was built. In 2006 and 2007, satellite photos first spotted three the Type 94 SSBNs. This was believed, in the West, to be the Chinese SSBN that would go on patrol. This has not happened, at least not yet. Turns out that the Type 94 also had technical problems and Chinese workers have been seen working on Type 94s for years and only three have been built. The Type 94 seemed like it would enter service because it is simply a variant of the Type 93 class SSN (nuclear powered attack sub), which looks a lot like the three decade old Russian Victor III class SSN design. The first Type 93 entered service in 2006.

The Type 94 SSBN looks like a Victor III with a missile compartment added. Taking a SSN design and adding extra compartments to hold the ballistic missiles is an old trick, pioneered by the United States in the 1950s to produce the first ever SSBNs. The Chinese appear to have done the same thing by taking their new Type 93 SSN and creating a larger Type 94 SSBN boat of 9,000 tons displacement. Priority was apparently given to construction of the Type 94, as having nuclear missiles able to reach the United States gives China more diplomatic clout than some new SSNs. The first Type 94 was completed at least six years ago. But it still has not gone to sea equipped with nuclear missiles.

This may be because after the first two new, 7,000 ton, Type 93 class SSNs went to sea, China apparently found their performance was not impressive at all. Not much more was expected from the Type 94s, except that they might be reliable enough to make a few combat patrols, just for the record. The 93s were too noisy and had a long list of more minor defects as well. It is unclear how many 93s will be built, probably no more than six (four appear to exist). More resources are apparently being diverted to the next SSN class, the 95, and the next SSBN, the Type 96. The first Type 95 is under construction and not expected to enter service until 2015. The U.S. recently revealed that it believed the Type 96 was under construction as is at least one Type 95 SSN.

The Type 93 and Type 94 were both over a decade in development and construction. Work began on the 94 class in the 1990s. For years all that was known was that the Chinese were having technical problems with the new design. The Type 94 is a modern SSBN, using technology bought from Russia, plus what was developed by the Chinese in their earlier nuclear submarine building efforts. While the Chinese have had a hard time building reliable and quiet nuclear subs, they are determined to acquire the needed skills. You do that by doing it and eating your mistakes. U.S. intelligence experts believe that China is now concentrating on the design of the new Type 96s. That may still be the case and the Type 94 seen at sea may be testing new technology meant for the Type 96.

But there are other problems. The Chinese government is apparently uneasy with sending off an SSBN, armed with twelve or more SLBMs, each with one or more nuclear warheads. Western nations carefully select the officers and crews of their SSBNs and use a host of codes and procedures (PAL or "Permissive Action Links") to insure that a single madman cannot use any of those SLBMs. Russia also screened crews and had PAL codes but also had, in effect, representatives of the secret police on the SSBN, whose main job was to insure that the SLBMs were used as the government back in Moscow commanded. China has always been much less trusting of the armed forces when it comes to nuclear weapons. China also appears to lack the advanced PAL technology found in the West. All this doesn't get much mention in the West but it is very real inside China. So, when the Type 96 shows up, sometime late in this decade, it will be revealing to see if the Chinese have overcome their reluctance to trust a crew of Chinese sailors with all those nukes.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I am not sure how credible can the rest of the report be if one part of it says the type 093 SSN look a lot like the Victor.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Good read. I find the last paragraph especially interesting. Not sure how true it is though.


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Strategy commits a very basic error when they refer to these as "combat patrols," IMHO.

There is no war on...there is no active combat.

SSBN patrols are properly referred to as deterrence patrols. They go out to a deep hole in the ocean, ideally as far way and unknown as possible, and then, in essence, make figure eights in the ocean...being there as a part of a triad of nuclear capabilities to respond in the horrific event of real nuclear war.

If such an exchange occurred, then their patrol would become a "combat" patrol.

But the SSBNs conduct these patrols actually to deter combat.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I am not sure how credible can the rest of the report be if one part of it says the type 093 SSN look a lot like the Victor.

Correct, I have seen same claim made in many different news reports and forums, but in reality 093 looks nothing like Victor III what uses quite distinct Russian "body of revolution" design, and to my knowledge 093 is a single hull submarine. I believe the claim about it's noise levels (that famous ONI estimation) is based on claim that 093 is a copy of Victor class subs.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

According to Kanwa, the newly launched 094 at Huludao in 2013 GE photo has some differences from the one stationed in SSF. Although both are 125 m long and sail is 13 m long with 46 m long hump, the distance from bow to sail is reduced from 23 m to 18.7 m. The question is what prompted this redesign of sail being closer to bow?
 
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