PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[jobjed]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

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The Mings are primarily used for training and the PLAN will have to be very hard pressed to think about using them for actual combat missions.

However, if faced with enemy subs PLAN lines subs are struggling to find on passive sonar, the Mings can still play an important role. The Mings are so old and noisy, there would be little point to try employing stealth tactics with them against anyone half competent in ASW and who has anything remotely modern to field. So I wouldn't even bother trying, just run them with a skeleton crew operating purely on diesels with active sonar pinning continuously.

The key is to have at least one SSN or modern SSK operating behind the Ming, maybe some ASW helos and MPAs as well if possible so if anyone takes a shot at the easy target, they expose themselves to immediate retaliatory attack.

Trading a Ming or two for a modern enemy SSK or SSN is good maths for the PLAN, and functioning this way, the Mings can act as either as bait or hounds to lure or chase away enemy subs from high value targets. This won't work far out to sea, but could be an effective strategy if the PLAN wants to clear a narrow stretch of water or protect a small corridor, like opening up and maintaining a safe zone for an amphibious landing fleet across the Taiwan Strait for example.

But as I said, such a tactic would only really be considered as a last resort in the event front line PLAN subs and surface ships just cannot effective counter enemy subs passively. But such a case seems extremely unlikely, especially so close to the Chinese coast.

Anyone else already starting to feel sorry for the crew of the Ming intended to be used as bait?

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Anyone else already starting to feel sorry for the crew of the Ming intended to be used as bait?

Well, as I stated earlier...they are diesel electrics and in the littoral waters, particularly littoral waters that have either high neutral or civilian traffic and/or air dominance by friendly aircraft, they could still pose a threat. As she sits there waiting, she will be fairly quiet. Either with her missiles, if they have ASM missiles abooard, or torpedoes if adversaries come to her, near enough to those shallow littorals with lots of traffic around.

Under those very restricted conditions...she may get a shot in.

Suicide missions will not be, IMHO, a stated, standard policy or strategy...though they may occur on an individual basis depending on circusmatcnes...which would make them heroic.

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Anyone else already starting to feel sorry for the crew of the Ming intended to be used as bait?

Anyone who thinks you can eliminate risks and sacrifice in war is either deluded or has never fought a capable opponent with decent weapons and competent training.

Anyways, a Ming running on her diesels and actively pinning is hardly on a suicide mission, especially if the trap is successfully sprang a few times. Sooner or later the enemy will get wise to this and the Mings will probably be the safest boats in the fleet from enemy sub attack. If they are operated near friendly shores, they would also be neigh on untouchable by enemy MPA or ASW helos.

But as I said, this will only be a last ditch tactic and normally you would expect the PLAN's subs, MPA helos and surface ships to be able to deal with enemy subs near the Chinese coast and/or high value targets without having to resort to such crude measures.

 

[franco-russe]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Wow! They were still building Mings up until 2001? Simply amazing. They were building Mings 6 years after the Sea Wolf was launched and while the Virginia was being built.

Also lets you know how far the PLAN has come in 12 years too.

I think the explanation may be that PLAN had an urgent requirement for something better to replace the ROMEO’s of the South Sea Fleet, and MING’s could be built faster than SONG’s, which were initially reserved for the East Sea Fleet. So Wuhan built MING 305-312 as a stop-gap for 32 Submarine Flotilla Yulin, until it could get SONG’s and 636M’s. The MING’s were then passe don to the newly formed 72 Submarine Flotilla Xiachuandao.

Yes, PLAN has come a long way since just 2005.

 

[adeptitus]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Jeff,
You are knowledgeable about naval equipment. Could you explain how the Ming class submarine can still be effective in today’s modern naval warfare environment? I’ve read how extensively modified the Ming is from the original Romeo class, but how can it still have a value as a military asset, other than perhaps as a training vessel, or commando transport? Could you explain? Thank you.

The threat of a hostile sub alone will cause the opponent to deploy significant ASW assets and/or stay at distance. See: ARA San Luis, the lone Argentine type 209 sub that was deployed against the RN during the Falklands conflict.

 

[Miragedriver]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The threat of a hostile sub alone will cause the opponent to deploy significant ASW assets and/or stay at distance. See: ARA San Luis, the lone Argentine type 209 sub that was deployed against the RN during the Falklands conflict.

This is true. The Royal Navy did expended 200 plus ASW rounds in attempting to hit the San Luis. However, I believe the electronic systems and acoustics on the Type 209 are superior to the Ming. That’s just my opinion, not fact. I do agree with Jeff that as a training submarine it still has value. And as PLFWOLF also mentioned it’s potential to ambush civilian shipping and an unsuspecting military vessel in littoral waters.

 

[antiterror13]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

This is true. The Royal Navy did expended 200 plus ASW rounds in attempting to hit the San Luis. However, I believe the electronic systems and acoustics on the Type 209 are superior to the Ming. That’s just my opinion, not fact. I do agree with Jeff that as a training submarine it still has value. And as PLFWOLF also mentioned it’s potential to ambush civilian shipping and an unsuspecting military vessel in littoral waters.

It depends what version of 209 you are comparing .... surely current operational Mings would have much superior electronic and weapons system than type 209 Argentina operated during Malvinas/Falkland war.

 

[luhai]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

They can also annoy the hell out of neighboring navy by going on peace time patrols as well as testing potential adversary's ASW abilities and improve on tactics without giving out limitations and characteristics of frontline subs. Such it's not surprising that it the old subs like Song and Ming that get all the action and news spots, while Yuans and Kilos stay mostly in port.

In November 2003, a PLAN Type 035 Ming class submarine intentionally surfaced in the vicinity of Japanese waters after a stealth drill, staging a show of the PLAN's ability to dodge Japan's reconnaissance and sending a warning to the United States, Japan and even Taiwan.

Around 8am on 12 November 2003, a Japanese Marine Self-Defence Force P-3C spotted a Chinese diesel-electric submarine heading west on the surface of international waters 25 miles east of Satamisaki, a port town of Kagoshima prefecture on Kyushu Island. The submarine, hoisting a PRC national flag, sailed through the Osumi Strait between Kyushu and Tanegashima, a tiny southern Japanese island. The information was confirmed by Chinese authorities the next day, when Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said the submarine's appearance in waters near Japan was "routine maritime training".

The submarine was discovered sailing westward, meaning that it was already on a return voyage from a secret mission before it deliberately floated up to the surface for detection. The unidentified Type 035 Ming class submarine may belong to the North Sea Fleet and its homeport is either in Qingdao or Lushun.

 

[Mysterre]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

They can also annoy the hell out of neighboring navy by going on peace time patrols as well as testing potential adversary's ASW abilities and improve on tactics without giving out limitations and characteristics of frontline subs. Such it's not surprising that it the old subs like Song and Ming that get all the action and news spots, while Yuans and Kilos stay mostly in port.

It's possible this Ming was undetected, and it's also possible it was detected and tracked all the way. We will never know for sure.

 

[Delbert]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The sea is so vast... Some of you saying the Mings can be used for Ambush? Just imagine how long the coastline was.. I don't think China even have enough Mings to ambush any potential enemy sailing across its waters. Not unless they also choose to deploy the Romeo's which are much larger in number.

Lastly I just really wonder if the newer Yuan submarines are far more QUIET and CAPABLE than the Kilo submarine from Russia that China has?