PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[franco-russe]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

12 Submarine Flotilla Lushun, the old Russian Port Arthur Naval Base (note the Orthodox church in the background).

But why do they never focus on the auxiliaries...?

All I can read is HAIQING 632 of 77 Subchaser Squadron Changhai-Haiyangdao.

 

[FORBIN]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The more old Ming at Lushun or Xiachuandao/72 Fl/SSF ?

 

[franco-russe]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The more old Ming at Lushun or Xiachuandao/72 Fl/SSF ?

I am not sure I understand the question, but the oldest MING's (recently retired) were at Qingdao, the eight at Lushun were built 1989-1995 and the eight at Xiachuandao 1996-2001.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

that's right, the newest Mings are at 72nd flottilla. They were actually produced after the first Song was already launched and they can fire anti-ship missiles.

 

[FORBIN]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Submarine flotilla

12/Lushun/NSF here 38 47 27 N 121 14 28 E
we see all 8 moored along 3 piers

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I am not sure I understand the question, but the oldest MING's (recently retired) were at Qingdao, the eight at Lushun were built 1989-1995 and the eight at Xiachuandao 1996-2001.

Wow! They were still building Mings up until 2001? Simply amazing. They were building Mings 6 years after the Sea Wolf was launched and while the Virginia was being built.

Also lets you know how far the PLAN has come in 12 years too.

 

[Miragedriver]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Wow! They were still building Mings up until 2001? Simply amazing. They were building Mings 6 years after the Sea Wolf was launched and while the Virginia was being built.

Also lets you know how far the PLAN has come in 12 years too.

Jeff,
You are knowledgeable about naval equipment. Could you explain how the Ming class submarine can still be effective in today’s modern naval warfare environment? I’ve read how extensively modified the Ming is from the original Romeo class, but how can it still have a value as a military asset, other than perhaps as a training vessel, or commando transport? Could you explain? Thank you.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Deleted duplicate post.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Jeff,
You are knowledgeable about naval equipment. Could you explain how the Ming class submarine can still be effective in today’s modern naval warfare environment? I’ve read how extensively modified the Ming is from the original Romeo class, but how can it still have a value as a military asset, other than perhaps as a training vessel, or commando transport? Could you explain? Thank you.

Training for sure.

I would not venture commando raids unless it was in littoral waters and against an adversary with very few ASW naval assets. If that were the case (littoral and very little counter capabilities)...then yes.

Also, they are diesel electrics and in the littoral waters, particularly littoral waters that have either high neutral or civilian traffic and/or air dominance by friendly aircraft, she could still pose a threat. As she sits there waiting, she will be fairly quiet. Either with her missiles, if they have ASM missiles abooard, or torpedoes if adversaries come to her, near enough to those shallow littorals with lots of traffic around.

Under those very restricted conditions...she may get a shot in.

Once she shoots, if the adversary has any capability at all, she is probably dead. But if it is a lone target with no helo, they will be busy trying to avoid her torpedo and she may have time to get away. That's one reason why the US is building very fast littoral combatants. They will carry helos and other ASW equipment and at 50+ knots will be able to litterally outrun most torpedoes fired at them.

From my own perspective I would say the Mings are good for training and very close in, coastal patrols, and to be replaced as soon as there are enough Songs, Kilos, and particularly Yuans to do so.

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

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Jeff,
You are knowledgeable about naval equipment. Could you explain how the Ming class submarine can still be effective in today’s modern naval warfare environment? I’ve read how extensively modified the Ming is from the original Romeo class, but how can it still have a value as a military asset, other than perhaps as a training vessel, or commando transport? Could you explain? Thank you.

The Mings are primarily used for training and the PLAN will have to be very hard pressed to think about using them for actual combat missions.

However, if faced with enemy subs PLAN lines subs are struggling to find on passive sonar, the Mings can still play an important role. The Mings are so old and noisy, there would be little point to try employing stealth tactics with them against anyone half competent in ASW and who has anything remotely modern to field. So I wouldn't even bother trying, just run them with a skeleton crew operating purely on diesels with active sonar pinning continuously.

The key is to have at least one SSN or modern SSK operating behind the Ming, maybe some ASW helos and MPAs as well if possible so if anyone takes a shot at the easy target, they expose themselves to immediate retaliatory attack.

Trading a Ming or two for a modern enemy SSK or SSN is good maths for the PLAN, and functioning this way, the Mings can act as either as bait or hounds to lure or chase away enemy subs from high value targets. This won't work far out to sea, but could be an effective strategy if the PLAN wants to clear a narrow stretch of water or protect a small corridor, like opening up and maintaining a safe zone for an amphibious landing fleet across the Taiwan Strait for example.

But as I said, such a tactic would only really be considered as a last resort in the event front line PLAN subs and surface ships just cannot effective counter enemy subs passively. But such a case seems extremely unlikely, especially so close to the Chinese coast.