PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

They totally did that with Kilo by the way. There are always Kilo submarine at HD shipyard getting modifications done.

I know they are getting work done on them, that would be normal for any force of 12 vessels. But did they take one out of the twelve and not use it, and basically take it completely apart to figure out how to build it? I was unaware that they had, and if I am wrong, would just like to know.

I thought they had used all twelve in their force and rotate them out for maintenance.

Now, no doubt they have learned a lot about them...and perhaps the deal included all of the technical drawings so they could do full maintenance.

Anyhow, that is the type of thing I was speaking of.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Sorry, but i dont believe that. Who are those people that you mentioned? That doesnt make sense. China has always strived to make its own, even making copies without license.

You don't think there are people in China who get paid and are involved in these projects when they import stuff? lol...

We will see how this comes out. I think they are having conversations, but whether anything comes of it is a different story. Russians have complained for a long time that China spends a bunch of time talking to them, get all the technical data and then just stops talking before the purchase.

So China is buying submarine from Russia? I will believe it when the subs are in PLAN service

There is massive political pressure on Chinese by the government to make everything in house, you really think they will give this contract to Russia

Plus China has advanced submarine technology and have offered SSK in the class of U-214 to Pakistan so its out of the question

The goal is eventually to make everything in house, but they have shown willingness to buy interim options until domestic technology matures. Look, they bought used IL-76s despite of the ongoing Y-20 project. They don't have an advanced littoral design like Lada right now. Again, I don't think it makes sense for them to purchase it due to the problems that Lada is still experiencing, but that does not mean we should completely dismiss this.

I know they are getting work done on them, that would be normal for any force of 12 vessels. But did they take one out of the twelve and not use it, and basically take it completely apart to figure out how to build it? I was unaware that they had, and if I am wrong, would just like to know.

I thought they had used all twelve in their force and rotate them out for maintenance.

Now, no doubt they have learned a lot about them...and perhaps the deal included all of the technical drawings so they could do full maintenance.

Anyhow, that is the type of thing I was speaking of.

I don't think they ever took any single kilo apart, but there have been kilos that sat in HD for very long time. That I'm pretty sure they got everything they needed. Those kilos are not going back to Russia to get maintenance work done.

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You don't think there are people in China who get paid and are involved in these projects when they import stuff? lol...

No, I don’t think these people exist in the chinese government. Get paid by whom? The Russians? Although I’m willing to admit your theory that the Chinese are using this conversations to get technical details.

The goal is eventually to make everything in house, but they have shown willingness to buy interim options until domestic technology matures. Look, they bought used IL-76s despite of the ongoing Y-20 project. They don't have an advanced littoral design like Lada right now.

You cant compare IL-76 with lada. China has been building submarines for decades and even recently built a totally new SSK, with similar size to the soryu class submarine, not to mention nuclear submarines. China can built submarines, even if they are not quite as advanced as the Russians. On the other hand, they have never built any heavy transport plane. Until y-20 enters service, they are dependent on the Russians for heavy lift planes.

 

[Schumacher]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Starting to like this possible Lada deal. Russia is obviously stuck & China can help them to take this long delayed project over the finish line. Maybe that's why the report says the Lada will be built in China.
China can definitely use this littoral design to complement their bigger ocean going Yuans in the East & South China Sea.

 

[Engineer]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

No, I don’t think these people exist in the chinese government. Get paid by whom? The Russians? Although I’m willing to admit your theory that the Chinese are using this conversations to get technical details.

I recall reading an article years ago. It said Chinese would often indicate interests and conduct talks with the West about the procurement of Western technologies, gathering up as much technical details as possible in the process. Then, at the very last moment, never to be heard from again.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

No, I don’t think these people exist in the chinese government. Get paid by whom? The Russians? Although I’m willing to admit your theory that the Chinese are using this conversations to get technical details.

As for get paid by whom? Who from Chinese side do you think would've been involved in any import project like Su-30 or Kilo? If you don't think there are such people, then this argument is pointless.

You cant compare IL-76 with lada. China has been building submarines for decades and even recently built a totally new SSK, with similar size to the soryu class submarine, not to mention nuclear submarines. China can built submarines, even if they are not quite as advanced as the Russians. On the other hand, they have never built any heavy transport plane. Until y-20 enters service, they are dependent on the Russians for heavy lift planes.

That new SSK is used to replace the old No. 200. Nuclear submarines don't count, since Lada is a littoral submarine. China has purchased Su-30MKK in the past as an interim option even though it had J-11B/S and J-16 in development plans. So if we ignore IL-76, they still have examples. They purchased Sov DDG in the past as interim option even though the more advanced 052B and 052C got delivered at pretty much the same time. There are so many examples of interim Russian solutions. I don't understand why you are solely focused on IL-76?

The question is whether or not they actually will get it. I really don't think they will and this is a negotiation ploy like in the past to get more technical data from Russians, but we will see.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As for get paid by whom? Who from Chinese side do you think would've been involved in any import project like Su-30 or Kilo? If you don't think there are such people, then this argument is pointless


That new SSK is used to replace the old No. 200. Nuclear submarines don't count, since Lada is a littoral submarine. China has purchased Su-30MKK in the past as an interim option even though it had J-11B/S and J-16 in development plans. So if we ignore IL-76, they still have examples. They purchased Sov DDG in the past as interim option even though the more advanced 052B and 052C got delivered at pretty much the same time. There are so many examples of interim Russian solutions. I don't understand why you are solely focused on IL-76?

The question is whether or not they actually will get it. I really don't think they will and this is a negotiation ploy like in the past to get more technical data from Russians, but we will see.

After Taiwan crisis China was forced into buying many big ticket items and that was over a decade ago, today none of that is relevant and would never happen again as Chinese industry has turn inwards making anything and everything themselves

Where they can't they do joint ventures so a clean purchase outright again is not going to happen, just look at all the systems China imported for Type 052B and then compare to Type 052C its almost entirely Chinese systems

Buying excess used IL-76 at a good price is a quick stop gap which will give massive increase in capability to China, the offset is pretty big in this deal in favour of China, the same theory or logic can in way be applied to submarines or surface combatants

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

After Taiwan crisis China was forced into buying many big ticket items and that was over a decade ago, today none of that is relevant and would never happen again as Chinese industry has turn inwards making anything and everything themselves

They are still purchasing Mi-17 in mass quantity. So, they are obviously not making everything themselves when it doesn't make sense to.

Where they can't they do joint ventures so a clean purchase outright again is not going to happen, just look at all the systems China imported for Type 052B and then compare to Type 052C its almost entirely Chinese systems

Buying excess used IL-76 at a good price is a quick stop gap which will give massive increase in capability to China, the offset is pretty big in this deal in favour of China, the same theory or logic can in way be applied to submarines or surface combatants

so, all you are doing here is making the argument that if they see the need, they will buy interim solutions. And you don't think they have that need right now, which I agree with.

btw, I think what you put there regarding 052B and 052C is the wrong way to look at things. You should refer to my blog entry on 052D.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I don't think they ever took any single kilo apart, but there have been kilos that sat in HD for very long time. That I'm pretty sure they got everything they needed. Those kilos are not going back to Russia to get maintenance work done.

Exactly. And I know that the PLAN themselves are doing the Kilo maintenance work on the Kilos, that was my meaning when I said, "I know they are getting work done on them, that would be normal for any force of 12 vessels."

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As for get paid by whom? Who from Chinese side do you think would've been involved in any import project like Su-30 or Kilo? If you don't think there are such people, then this argument is pointless.

Yes, this argument is pointless because i dont think that this people exist, or if they ever existed, are no longer in position of power, because the domestic industry has shown it can do it.

That new SSK is used to replace the old No. 200. Nuclear submarines don't count, since Lada is a littoral submarine. China has purchased Su-30MKK in the past as an interim option even though it had J-11B/S and J-16 in development plans. So if we ignore IL-76, they still have examples. They purchased Sov DDG in the past as interim option even though the more advanced 052B and 052C got delivered at pretty much the same time. There are so many examples of interim Russian solutions. I don't understand why you are solely focused on IL-76?

if china can go to the hassle of developing a totally new submarine just for SLBM tests, it surely can develop a combat submarine using that tech. And why would china want a littoral submarine ?? the west pacific is not the baltic sea nor the black sea. There is a reason why japan´s submarines are the largest SSK´s in the world. Ships have to cover great distances. And china has a big coast. China has bought the su-30 and sov destroyer because in the past they had urgent need for tech/solutions, and couldnt wait for domestic solutions. They were needed at the time. Today, china doesnt need lada.