PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

improved LA class? then we are talking of 80´s USN tech. Still, its better than the type 093 which is supposed to correspond with soviet 70´s sub tech.

I wonder how it compares to the Yasen class. Perhabs not as good as the russian sub, but not too far.

I asked huitong how he came to his conclusions of acoustic stealth and basically he said it was his own opinion/judging shape of the submarine... and eyeballing a sub's stealth is far less reliable than judging an aircraft's radar VLO, given a lot of the noise cancellation and reducing efforts are on the inside of the sub rather than simply the presence of a blended sail, pumpjet and retractable hydroplanes.
Personally I think his assessment of 093 (and thus 095) is off. The other popular train of thought is that 093 is comparable to 688 and 095 will be china's seawolf/virginia. Given the massive progress of industry in the 2000s compared to the 90s in which both classes were designed respectively, that's definitely on the cards.

People forget seawolf would've been designed in the eighties with early nineties manufacturing and industry. I'd be very surprised if 095 leaves open this 20 year gap. At the very least we should expect new generation electronics aboard 095, fibre optics, advanced mast/periscopes and battle management centres etc

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I asked huitong how he came to his conclusions of acoustic stealth and basically he said it was his own opinion/judging shape of the submarine... and eyeballing a sub's stealth is far less reliable than judging an aircraft's radar VLO, given a lot of the noise cancellation and reducing efforts are on the inside of the sub rather than simply the presence of a blended sail, pumpjet and retractable hydroplanes.
Personally I think his assessment of 093 (and thus 095) is off. The other popular train of thought is that 093 is comparable to 688 and 095 will be china's seawolf/virginia. Given the massive progress of industry in the 2000s compared to the 90s in which both classes were designed respectively, that's definitely on the cards.

People forget seawolf would've been designed in the eighties with early nineties manufacturing and industry. I'd be very surprised if 095 leaves open this 20 year gap. At the very least we should expect new generation electronics aboard 095, fibre optics, advanced mast/periscopes and battle management centres etc

You are right. If huitong got this conclusion based on the shape of the sub, then it really doesnt mean much. A lot of the quiteness of the sub depend on its interior, not exterior.

But it would be a big jump if type 095 is comparable to the seawolf/virginia

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You are right. If huitong got this conclusion based on the shape of the sub, then it really doesnt mean much. A lot of the quiteness of the sub depend on its interior, not exterior.

But it would be a big jump if type 095 is comparable to the seawolf/virginia

Not as big as it would be if 093 were at early LA SSN noise levels, one of the two competing theories out there on 093's true capabilities.

 

[escobar]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Good point Kroko, I agree. The real 095 submarine will be probably different from these images. In your opinion if they're buiding 095 now when do you think the first official pics will be released? This year, after the first tests in the sea, or the unveiling is still few years away? With 093 if I remember correctly the sub officially appeared only years after first sea tests.

11 January 2013

---------- Post added 01-28-2012 at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-27-2012 at 11:39 PM ----------

You are right. If huitong got this conclusion based on the shape of the sub, then it really doesnt mean much. A lot of the quiteness of the sub depend on its interior, not exterior.
But it would be a big jump if type 095 is comparable to the seawolf/virginia

if type 095 is not in the same "league" as seawolf/virginia (design in 80/90s) then PLAN will have a big problem.
i remember read somwhere that type 095 noise level will be below 100 db. By comparision

ocean background : 90 db
seawolf/virginia : 95 db
Kilo 636 : 105 db
Sierra : 120 db
Los Angeles : 115 db

All those numbers are not probably true.

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

if type 095 is not in the same "league" as seawolf/virginia (design in 80/90s) then PLAN will have a big problem.

why? its not that isnt the case with every mil tech field. The US has been heavily researching mil tech for decades. China has only do so since the 90´s. Give them (a lot of) time to catch up. Remember that the US doesnt stand still

type 095 is an important step forward. But i doubt that it is at the level of seawolf/virginia.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The US has been heavily researching SSN tech for decades. China has only do so since the 90´s.

type 095 is an important step forward. But i doubt that it is at the level of seawolf/virginia.

90s?
-facepalm-
Maybe they've only started research for the 095 SSN since the nineties but their SSN, and more importantly, overall submarine program was started in the mid twentieth century... Now the actual progress made from that time to now is a whole different question.

And think about it, uss seawolf was built from 1989 to ~1996. think about the research before 1989 which will have gone into developing the technologies of the submarine -- 1980's computing and science -- and putting that technology into practice with early nineties industry and manufacturing.
Now think about 095, supposedly currently under construction now at bohai. 095 will have had 2000's research and computing gone into it, with 2010's manufacturing. If 095 isn't in the seawolf/virginia ballpark of noise control (90's level acoustics!) then the chinese SSN program will be more than twenty years behind, and not closed the gap at all from 093 -- which given the more funding PLA has compared to 20 years ago, not to mention much advanced industry and computing compared to the 90s, would be a travesty.

the debate on 095, and the perspective on Chinese SSNs seems very reminiscent to the debate over J-20/J-XX before it came out, and the perspectives people had on the chinese fighter industry too.

---

Give them (a lot of) time to catch up. Remember that the US doesnt stand still

You're right, they don't stand still -- but the US's current top of the line SSNs, the virginia class is generally accepted to have an acoustics level similar to that of the seawolf class, so in that respect they have stood still for a decade now. The first seawolf SSN was built in the early nineties as I said before, so the USN's cream of the crop SSNs have early nineties level top of the line noise reduction. If the 20+ year gap remains, I would actually be quite shocked.

 

[Schumacher]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

There's also the question of the needs of the Navy thus how much money you throw into the project. Seawolf was so expensive they couldn't afford many of them. Much like F22.
095 may have some newer tech but unlikely to reach overall levels of a Seawolf.
PLAN seems to need 095 to escort their future carrier groups or when not with carriers in the western Pacific. Working with other ASW assets in both scenarios. They don't seem to need 095, for now at least, to go solo like Seawolf/Virginia half way around the world into enemy territories.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

There's also the question of the needs of the Navy thus how much money you throw into the project. Seawolf was so expensive they couldn't afford many of them. Much like F22.
095 may have some newer tech but unlikely to reach overall levels of a Seawolf.
PLAN seems to need 095 to escort their future carrier groups or when not with carriers in the western Pacific. Working with other ASW assets in both scenarios. They don't seem to need 095, for now at least, to go solo like Seawolf/Virginia half way around the world into enemy territories.

But escorting CVBGs is also part of seawolf and virginia's roles too, just as "going it solo" will be part of 095's repertoire and I am sure is part of 093 and 091's as well.

Virginia offered seawolf level capabilities at a reduced cost, through much use of commercial off the shelf systems compared to its larger predecessor. I see no reason why the PLAN, who have had much experience with COTS for their ships, would allow the electronics component to balloon costs like the seawolf did, at least. Nor do I think 095 needs to be as large (and thus expensive) as seawolf, with its 8 torpedo tubes...

 

[Maggern]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

90s?
-facepalm-
Maybe they've only started research for the 095 SSN since the nineties but their SSN, and more importantly, overall submarine program was started in the mid twentieth century... Now the actual progress made from that time to now is a whole different question.

And think about it, uss seawolf was built from 1989 to ~1996. think about the research before 1989 which will have gone into developing the technologies of the submarine -- 1980's computing and science -- and putting that technology into practice with early nineties industry and manufacturing.
Now think about 095, supposedly currently under construction now at bohai. 095 will have had 2000's research and computing gone into it, with 2010's manufacturing. If 095 isn't in the seawolf/virginia ballpark of noise control (90's level acoustics!) then the chinese SSN program will be more than twenty years behind, and not closed the gap at all from 093 -- which given the more funding PLA has compared to 20 years ago, not to mention much advanced industry and computing compared to the 90s, would be a travesty.

the debate on 095, and the perspective on Chinese SSNs seems very reminiscent to the debate over J-20/J-XX before it came out, and the perspectives people had on the chinese fighter industry too.

---



You're right, they don't stand still -- but the US's current top of the line SSNs, the virginia class is generally accepted to have an acoustics level similar to that of the seawolf class, so in that respect they have stood still for a decade now. The first seawolf SSN was built in the early nineties as I said before, so the USN's cream of the crop SSNs have early nineties level top of the line noise reduction. If the 20+ year gap remains, I would actually be quite shocked.

I agree with the thinking behind this (increased budgets, increased tech level etc), but I would caution against using decades as mathematical constants that can be used to calculate capability...

 

[SinoSoldier]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Huitong's finally added this pic to his 095 description in the 093 entry

and now instead of calling 095 similar to vanilla 688, it's now "The design has been speculated to be comparable to American improved Los Angeles class SSN (688i) in terms of capability."
... We'll probably have to wait until the real thing comes out for people to start comparing it with seawolf/virginia but at least huitong adding to his site means there's probably some degree of credence to the model being 095...

A little surprised he's giving possibility to the magnetohydrodynamic/all electric propulsion too.

If it has "intakes" then it probably has magnetohydrodynamic drive.