PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[MwRYum]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

At the very least the PLAN needs more SSNs for offensive and counterforce operations, even if it takes a while to make them on par technologically with the best US SSNs.

In theory it is so, but in reality the Chinese can't fulfill such demand with their current budget and production capability - remember they' do have an ongoing carrier programme and modernization of their surface combatents - manpower and major changes will be required in their defense strategy. The only thing that can be said for certain is that they are trying to fulfill those demands slowly and gradually push towards open waters where the USN is still unchallenged.

So by the the range of operations in the meantime, modern SSKs with AIP would be the more logical - if not more economical - solution.

 

[antiterror13]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

100% agree, USN has been sole superpower for over 60 years with huge budget. PLAN just started modernization about 15-20 years ago with a very limited budget and backward tech in the first 10 years modernization

 

[schlieffen]

Re: »Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

You're right on the Virginia class. But the Sea Wolfs are not designed with littoral operations in mind and I'm not sure if they are better optimised for these missions than legacy 688Is.

As to tagging Chinese SSBNs, I think it really depends on how far the chinese boomers will come out of home water. When I said close to shore, I meant less than 200 n.miles where average depth is less than 400 feets. Operating in these environments would be a challenge even for the Virginia class, and is also too politically risky IMO. Imagine it Collide with something or trapped by fisherman's nets. Of course patrolling in shallow water have its own problems for boomers. In any event the 094s are yet to be fully operational with JL-2 so who knows.

 

[franco-russe]

Re: »Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

US nuclear submarines have vast experience with operating in the Barents Sea, watching their Soviet/Russian counterparts, and the Barents is pretty shallow, too. This has not been without a number of unfortunate incidents over the years, despite the political risks involved.

 

[schlieffen]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That was at the height of the cold war. In those days USN warships openly intruded soviet territory water and I don't see it happening today.

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That was at the height of the cold war. In those days USN warships openly intruded soviet territory water and I don't see it happening today.

Just because you dont see, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I dont think that the chinese sub detection tech is much advanced

 

[schlieffen]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

When I said 'openly intruded' I was refering to surface ships, notably the 1988 incident at black sea. Obviously one does not need advanced ASW sensors to see if that was happenning post-cold war.

During the cold war, if a US ship was strand or somehow runing into trouble near the soviet coast, that's not really a big deal. A small crisis maybe but those days we saw worse crisis every year. It would be a different story today.

Technically, within the EEZ of China the average depth is 100m or so and traffic/fishery is extremely busy, the best technology on the earth cannot guarantee the subs could operate undetected or problem-free forever, especially if the operation is kept in high tempo round the clock. If you sail along the coast during fishery seasons, it wouldn't be difficult to realize that evading the nets and boats alone would be a big headache and severely hinders the maneuverability of any submarines. Often periscope depth is the furthest you can dive, and you probably won’t come across a safe diving depth for hours. Not the best battlefield for submarines of either sides. It's not about stealth or sensor suit, it's about physics.

Occasional intrusions for intel collect etc. are perfectly possible, especially under the cover of bad weather. Routine operation too close to Chinese shore is an unnessicary aggressiveness and the return is poor compared to both operational and political risk.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: »Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

You're right on the Virginia class. But the Sea Wolfs are not designed with littoral operations in mind and I'm not sure if they are better optimised for these missions than legacy 688Is.

As to tagging Chinese SSBNs, I think it really depends on how far the chinese boomers will come out of home water. When I said close to shore, I meant less than 200 n.miles where average depth is less than 400 feets. Operating in these environments would be a challenge even for the Virginia class, and is also too politically risky IMO.

I agree. It depends on where the new PLAN SSBNs conduct their patrols. If they stay relatively close in to shore in shallow waters under the umrella of strong ASW air, surface and sub-surface protection, the US will be extremely limited and careful in what they try to do.

If they come out further and in deeper waters, then the opportunities change.

But they do not have to go too far for the US to acquire them, either with the subs, intelligence ships or other devices. Right now the Chinese subs simply are not quiet enough.

My guesss is that the US has used other means (meaning SEAL spec ops, etc) to install various types of listening, signature, and acquisition devices where-ever it can to help them tag, record, keep a record of and do intelligence work on China's sub fleet.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The current chinese nuclear fleet really are extremely noisy compared to western counterpart. Any time they get out and do a patrol, they get followed. How else do you think oni can post yearly report on how many patrols chinese submarine go on? That does not mean they should not go out. They should continue to do so to gain more operational experience so that the next generational submarine becomes quieter and more speaker for blue water operations. What is the point of building them if you keep them hidden in these large barbour? All those alarmist report about the hainan base was completely stupid. They are certainly under a lot more protection when they are protected by chinese land based asw assets. But if they get away from that, they are pretty much sitting ducks. The conventional subs certainly can't protect them. That is why you need to continue to invest in nuclear submarines. To me, the american nuclear submarine force is even more formidable blue water force than its aircraft carriers.

And another thing, if plan is that concerned about usn surveillance ships picking up the acoustic signature of chinese submarines, then just get fishing ships make really loud noises all around the american ship. It is in south china sea after all. It has many tools at disposal to make things difficult for usn efforts without creating international incidents.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

While I have no concrete proof I am also quite certain the US already has a hypersonic plane operational.

There is a lot of indication that the US has tested and may have operational a few very exotic technology aircraft. The Aurora project is one of these. The TR-3B is another.

There are some things flying around out there that people have seen and videoed. Weird sonic booms and aircraft noises have been heard in conjunction with some of this in California, Nevada, Arizona and Utah.

Who knows. The US skunk works at Area 51 and other places is still operating. Some day (like with the F-117A and the B-2, and the SR-71) we will find some of this out officially.

Though the US is pretty open about a lot of its military stuff, some of the very cutting edge, advanced prototype technology is extremely secretive, and some of it gets advanced to low level production of relatively small numbers of units (like 8-12, or maybe even 20) operating for years before the public is ever made aware of it, other than the rumor of people hearing, seeing and even videoing the strange aircraft.

Some of the videos are believable, othes are just so exotic that they are hard to believe, and then you have obvious frauds.

But...this is way off topic for PLAN submarines. Maybe some day we can have a really good, black project, exotic military technology thread.