PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Bltizo said:

Back on topic:

I'd prefer if PLAN used the time to organize those fancy words to instead do more testing, but a dedicated photo op after this long is nothing to be ashamed of.

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Totally disagree with you. This photo shoot are equally meaningful in galvanised all citizen of PRC nationalism and strengthening of PLA armed forces.

Not every ordinary people can understand or see the whole training and ops this carrier crews conducted.
But these few words and meaning are easily understandable by most PRC citizens.

Bltizo said:

I'd prefer if PLAN used the time to organize those fancy words to instead do more testing, but a dedicated photo op after this long is nothing to be ashamed of.

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Well, they are telling the world that they are proud of their carrier, and sending a message of how it helps realize the dream of a strong military (navy particularly I would imagine) for China.

Lion said:

Totally disagree with you. This photo shoot are equally meaningful in galvanised all citizen of PRC nationalism and strengthening of PLA armed forces.

Not every ordinary people can understand or see the whole training and ops this carrier crews conducted.
But these few words and meaning are easily understandable by most PRC citizens.

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? What do you disagree with? I never said this photo was a bad thing. Doing this is typical practice for any nation with a large flat deck ship.



However I will say though, that using a military vessel to foster national pride is always a little dangerous because if it is damaged or even lost in a potential military conflict the nation may lose a lot of face and the people may be whipped into a fervor.

Air Force Brat said:

So you guys are calling this an aerial photo with a little artistic license??

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? I don't understand your question. Many nations with carriers do these kind of sailor/word formations.



EDIT: man, creating human words using mandarin sure is difficult compared to english!

Bltizo said:

? What do you disagree with? I never said this photo was a bad thing. Doing this is typical practice for any nation with a large flat deck ship.



However I will say though, that using a military vessel to foster national pride is always a little dangerous because if it is damaged or even lost in a potential military conflict the nation may lose a lot of face and the people may be whipped into

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You are talking nonsense. Then you expect them to use a 400 tons mine sweeper to do a photo shot to galvanised whole spirit of PRC?

And getting a photo shot can potentially result in post or damaged of it? Why not keep the carrier in harbour and no ops, no sailing out and let her be harbour queen all her life. If PLAN dare to push this carrier to be operational. i dont think they will worry so much about a photo shot with potential of damaging it.


I don't know what's wrong with you? Even a simple photo shot you also want to pick at it with something Negative. Can you come out with more constructive comment? Stop with your worrying. Of you think this carrier is going to fight a WWIII tommorrow?

Lion said:

You are talking nonsense. Then you expect them to use a 400 tons mine sweeper to do a photo shot to galvanised whole spirit of PRC?

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Good lord, you're touchy.

Personally I think trying to galvanise the "whole spirit" of any country within any single ship is misguided.
This doesn't only go for China, but for the US, India, UK, France, etc etc too.

And getting a photo shot can potentially result in post or damaged of it? Why not keep the carrier in harbour and no ops, no sailing out and let her be harbour queen all her life. Definitely she will be save from any potential damaged and loss. Isn't that a better suggestion?

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What are you talking about, I never said a photo op would potentially lead to damage.

I'm saying that giving a single ship such a high profile and an attachment to national pride could end up biting the PLAN and PRC in the tail, if they one day lose the liaoning in a real war.
Aircraft carriers are symbols, and if your symbol can be sunk or destroyed it's also something to be cautious about.


I never said this photo op shouldn't have been done.
At the very most they could have changed the words to something more tasteful or subtle, instead of "Chinese dream, powerful military dream".
I think outlining some words on the liaoning is pretty cool, and it's about time the PLAN was able to.
I'd like to think they could have used the time to organize the sailors to instead work on actually testing more planes, but that's okay, they can take a few minutes out of the day to do this photo. I'd be a lot prouder of the PLAN's achievements once they load the deck full of J-15s, but in the meanwhile this is a nice little distraction.

Lion said:

I don't know what's wrong with you? Even a simple photo shot you also want to pick at it with something Negative. Can you come out with more constructive comment?

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As a chinese who is a dedicated follower of the PLA and wishes for them to modernize and turn into a strong military, I find your response confusing. You can't improve without realism and a clear eye.


Sure putting together some sailors on the flight deck makes a good photo, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I like a good photo op as much as the next guy.
But it would be a lot more meaningful once they develop a more substantial carrier flight wing. I'm not trying to rain on the PLAN's parade, but I'm not going to look at this photo and wave my five star flag vigorously either, because we all know the PLAN has a long way to go.

Let's put it another way. When the first J-15s landed on Liaoning I was as excited as anyone else. That was a real big first step step towards developing carrier capability. When J-15s began taking off from all launch positions, those were also good steps. Taking off and landing with mock up weapons was also major, all meant to foment future useful capability.

Putting together some sailors on deck for a photo is a good photo, but doesn't serve any useful function to get me particularly excited or impressed. It's a nice display, but it's something anyone can do.
I will be much more impressed with big deck words once the liaoning has a full complement of J-15s and helicopters and is sailing with a few escorts. Until then, the gesture frankly looks a little empty. Not fake per se, but definitely lacking something.



Or, if you want another analogy, I find military parades much less interesting than large scale military exercises. I found the 2009 PLAN fleet review much less interesting than their continual deployments to somalia. In a similar vein, I find this photo op less interesting than the landings and takeoffs of J-15s.

Bltizo said:

Good lord, you're touchy.

Personally I think trying to galvanise the "whole spirit" of any country within any single ship is misguided.
This doesn't only go for China, but for the US, India, UK, France, etc etc too.




What are you talking about, I never said a photo op would potentially lead to damage.

I'm saying that giving a single ship such a high profile and an attachment to national pride could end up biting the PLAN and PRC in the tail, if they one day lose the liaoning in a real war.
Aircraft carriers are symbols, and if your symbol can be sunk or destroyed it's also something to be cautious about.


I never said this photo op shouldn't have been done.
At the very most they could have changed the words to something more tasteful or subtle, instead of "Chinese dream, powerful military dream".
I think outlining some words on the liaoning is pretty cool, and it's about time the PLAN was able to.
I'd like to think they could have used the time to organize the sailors to instead work on actually testing more planes, but that's okay, they can take a few minutes out of the day to do this photo. I'd be a lot prouder of the PLAN's achievements once they load the deck full of J-15s, but in the meanwhile this is a nice little distraction.

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I totally disagree with your doubts and worry. If PLA who is a batch of ultra conservative people can agree with this shoot. I will not think this is a problem to them. Just sit back and enjoy some of the nice shot. If you are using your analogy. Tthey shouldn't even build the carrier in the first place. With or without the publicity of Liaoning. The carrier already earn a top place in the heart of Chinese people. Or you try to mean without this photo shoot or publicity of liaoning. PRC citizen will never feel anything if this ship is lost or bad things whatever?

Or just becos of this reason of demoralising the people spirit if potential loss , PLA shall avoid any development of capital of major ships for her future need? I don't see any reasoning of your worry and is totally out of place in this context.

Here guys THIS made my day !!! ... and please leave this stupid discussion, it will led to nothing !

Lion said:

I totally disagree with your doubts and worry. If PLA who is a batch of ultra conservative people can agree with this shoot. I will not think this is a problem to them. Just sit back and enjoy some of the nice shot. If you are using your analogy. Tthey shouldn't even build the carrier in the first place. With or without the publicity of Liaoning. The carrier already earn a top place in the heart of Chinese people. Or you try to mean without this photo shoot or publicity of liaoning. PRC citizen will never feel anything if this ship is lose or bad things whatever?

Or just becos of this reason of demoralising the people spirit if potential loss , PL shall avoid any development of capital of major ships for her future need? I don't see any reasoning of your worry.

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Let's put it this way, I'm interested in the PRC developing greater capability for their military. I am less interested, and frankly I am opposed to, developing pride pride in the military.


The US places high sentimental value on their carriers. But what happens if they lose a CVN one day in a war? Not only will you lose the sailors onboard, but it is a massive blow to national pride, it is almost an existentialist crisis. Fortunately the US has the military muscle to back up a loss.
If China instills a high sentimental value for the liaoning as well, and if it is one day lost in a war, how will China and its people react? It will also be a massive blow to national pride. Will China have the will and the power to respond? If not, then that's a problem.

I worry about highly publicizing and creating pride for any military vessel or project -- China, US, which ever country you want to name. I worry even more, if a nation doesn't have the capability to back up their symbol.
China should speak softly about the Liaoning and other future aircraft carriers, but carry a large stick in the form of powerful escorts, a potent airwing, and a more capable military all round.

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seriously, there's no need to be so touchy about what wasn't even a fully fledged criticism about the photo. More of a caution.

Deino said:

Here guys THIS made my day !!! ... and please leave this stupid discussion, it will led to nothing !

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Nice, those photos are higher res than the one I posted.

One can also really get a sense of how large the J-15 is with that photo. Goodness.