PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Intrepid

Major
In a war scenario, when pressed, they would be able to use both positions.
Your choice to believe this. The left position is beyond the fool line. You need space for the just landed aircraft and the departing aircraft - and you have one aircraft on the right take-off position because otherwise it makes no sense to use the additional left position. I do not believe that they will use both forward positions while landing is in progress.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Your choice to believe this. The left position is beyond the fool line. You need space for the just landed aircraft and the departing aircraft - and you have one aircraft on the right take-off position because otherwise it makes no sense to use the additional left position. I do not believe that they will use both forward positions while landing is in progress.

I think we are all aware of what you are saying Intrepid, but I believe Jeff is talking about departing aircraft and then recovering in a very short period of time by alternating arrivals and departures, much like they do at a large airport! Being able to do that under combat conditions will require excellent deck handling and coordination, something we believe the PLAN is very cabable of pulling off. brat
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Your choice to believe this. The left position is beyond the fool line. You need space for the just landed aircraft and the departing aircraft - and you have one aircraft on the right take-off position because otherwise it makes no sense to use the additional left position. I do not believe that they will use both forward positions while landing is in progress.

Agreed, but landing and take off both take such a short amount of time the inability to use te left launch position at same time as landing is not of practical detriment.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Your choice to believe this. The left position is beyond the fool line. You need space for the just landed aircraft and the departing aircraft - and you have one aircraft on the right take-off position because otherwise it makes no sense to use the additional left position. I do not believe that they will use both forward positions while landing is in progress.
They clearly will not have an aircraft parked in the port position when an aircraft is coming in. They will use the starboard position when that is happening. They would then move an aircraft that is already prepared into the port position as soon as the landing aircraft clears. It would require a short interval to do so.

Again, as I stated, this would occur in a emergency, combat situation. IE, you have your own strike package recovering but find that an enemy strike is inbound and need to launch rapidly to intercept it and reinforce your existing cap. They train for these contingencies so they can be able to respond in those conditions...which will not be common, but will be critical should they arise.

Good deck handling skills will allow for that in case they need it.

Otherwise, in other simultaneous operations, which themselves are fairly rare, they will simply use the starboard position as aircraft come in, and they will time the landings and launches to allow for the traffic.

Blackstone said:
The Canadian article reflects opinions of many military experts in the West, such as Aaron Friedberg and George Friedman, that PLAx is a "40 meter" military force; which is a derogatory term meaning PLAx looks good from 40 meters distance, but the closer one gets, the worse it is. Is it wishful thinking or sound analysis?
Blackstone, my father was a World War II Naval officer who saw significant combat in the PTO. He used to tell me that when the war started the US Navy had a lot of strategists who believed that the Japanese Navy was a paper tiger and that the US Navy would clean up the Pacific with them if there ever was a war.

He also told me that that thinking had infected a number of vessel and task force commanders at the time. He said it took a good 12-18 moths for all that to be weeded out. And in the mean time we lost a lot of ground and a lot of vessels. By the time it was weeded out, the US had a set of commanders, leaders, and strategists who operated under the presumption that they were fighting a very dangerous and committed adversary and that plans had to reflect that.

Today we have similar thinking compared to what the pre-World War thinking of the Japanese was. I choose to skip that step and make presumptions on the side of being more prepared for an adversary who just may clean my clock unless I am very careful, and just as prepared and committed myself.

Anyhow...in answer to your question. Yes, there are those in the west who want to believe this. I think if it is far too presumptuous, underestimates a committed adversary, and is foolhardy. But that's just me.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Blackstone, my father was a World War II Naval officer who saw significant combat in the PTO. He used to tell me that when the war started the US Navy had a lot of strategists who believed that the Japanese Navy was a paper tiger and that the US Navy would clean up the Pacific with them if there ever was a war.

He also told me that that thinking had infected a number of vessel and task force commanders at the time. He said it took a good 12-18 moths for all that to be weeded out. And in the mean time we lost a lot of ground and a lot of vessels. By the time it was weeded out, the US had a set of commanders, leaders, and strategists who operated under the presumption that they were fighting a very dangerous and committed adversary and that plans had to reflect that.

Today we have similar thinking compared to what the pre-World War thinking of the Japanese was. I choose to skip that step and make presumptions on the side of being more prepared for an adversary who just may clean my clock unless I am very careful, and just as prepared and committed myself.

Anyhow...in answer to your question. Yes, there are those in the west who want to believe this. I think if it is far too presumptuous, underestimates a committed adversary, and is foolhardy. But that's just me.

Well said. Both overestimation and underestimation are dangers, and it takes a sound person to judge a likely middle ground and avoid attractive presumptions for boosting one sides own ego.

Let us hope that the presumptions, if any, are never tested for china and the US.
 

Preux

Junior Member
They clearly will not have an aircraft parked in the port position when an aircraft is coming in. They will use the starboard position when that is happening. They would then move an aircraft that is already prepared into the port position as soon as the landing aircraft clears. It would require a short interval to do so.

Again, as I stated, this would occur in a emergency, combat situation. IE, you have your own strike package recovering but find that an enemy strike is inbound and need to launch rapidly to intercept it and reinforce your existing cap. They train for these contingencies so they can be able to respond in those conditions...which will not be common, but will be critical should they arise.

Good deck handling skills will allow for that in case they need it.

Otherwise, in other simultaneous operations, which themselves are fairly rare, they will simply use the starboard position as aircraft come in, and they will time the landings and launches to allow for the traffic.

Blackstone, my father was a World War II Naval officer who saw significant combat in the PTO. He used to tell me that when the war started the US Navy had a lot of strategists who believed that the Japanese Navy was a paper tiger and that the US Navy would clean up the Pacific with them if there ever was a war.

He also told me that that thinking had infected a number of vessel and task force commanders at the time. He said it took a good 12-18 moths for all that to be weeded out. And in the mean time we lost a lot of ground and a lot of vessels. By the time it was weeded out, the US had a set of commanders, leaders, and strategists who operated under the presumption that they were fighting a very dangerous and committed adversary and that plans had to reflect that.

Today we have similar thinking compared to what the pre-World War thinking of the Japanese was. I choose to skip that step and make presumptions on the side of being more prepared for an adversary who just may clean my clock unless I am very careful, and just as prepared and committed myself.

Anyhow...in answer to your question. Yes, there are those in the west who want to believe this. I think if it is far too presumptuous, underestimates a committed adversary, and is foolhardy. But that's just me.

I don't think the PRC should be seen as a committed adversary at all. Rival perhaps, adversary? We (the Soviet Union) were adversaries due to irreconcilable ideological conflicts, mutual strategic threats and the most massive armed stand off the planet had ever seen... China is not and likely won't ever be in that situation with regards to the USA.
 

Lion

Senior Member
I don't think the PRC should be seen as a committed adversary at all. Rival perhaps, adversary? We (the Soviet Union) were adversaries due to irreconcilable ideological conflicts, mutual strategic threats and the most massive armed stand off the planet had ever seen... China is not and likely won't ever be in that situation with regards to the USA.

Any country with the potential to take over the place of US is consider a threat to America.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't think the PRC should be seen as a committed adversary at all. Rival perhaps, adversary? We (the Soviet Union) were adversaries due to irreconcilable ideological conflicts, mutual strategic threats and the most massive armed stand off the planet had ever seen... China is not and likely won't ever be in that situation with regards to the USA.

OT, but the sheer fact that china doesn't have the same ideology as the US, and the fact that they are a rising economy intent on securing its peripheries from American influence is seen as the definition of a committed adversary. That least that is the sound of it from some US government and military bodies.

Sometimes I chuckle to myself, because the "norm" apparently is for the US to have forward deployed all aspect military dominance, and anything less than that is seen as a danger for much of the US military establishment.
Furthermore, the ideology of the US since the end of the Cold War, the briefly coined "new world order" so to speak, basically advertised the idea of universal American values, one of which is namely the hostility to non-democratic countries (when it doesn't suit US interests). Now I'm not trying to bash the US at all, and this post is bordering on politics, but that is the ideological reality china and the US will face, for at least the immediate to medium term future, and as/if China's military and economic rise continues, then these frictions will start to heat up.


The only saving grace for the US-China relationship that will hinder and dissuade conflict, is that both countries are too vital to each other and the world economy.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
This entire discussion about the operation of well deck doors is clearly completely Off Topic for the PLAN Aircraft carrier thread. It should be moved to the larger amphibious assault vessel thread under the World Military Forum. In an effort to help that happen, I will place an answer there.
 
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