PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

FORBIN said:

I am not completely sure the 2nd is to 100 % Chinese...

For 056 no rudimentary an honnest Corvette even in a French Mag they say for her missions can do good job ofc is not a battleship. And to use in Flotillas.

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You are right, I wouldn't call it 100% Chinese. Obviously the hull is "inspired" or "based on" by Liaoning (Varyag). But anything else (Avionic, Radar, propulsion, software, etc) are obviously ~99% Chinese (not 100% as some chips and other small parts may be made in outside China )

I believe it is 100% Chinese in the sense that they are building all of it.

There may be some foreign sourced instruments...but the Chinese are not depending on anyone for this vessel except the Chinese...if they cannot get one thing somewhere, they will either find somewhere else or build it themselves.

This is the principle strength the Chinese have developed based on the track they took over the Indians.

The Indians are having to depend on a LOT of people for their new carrier they are building and wholly dependent on the Russians for the aircraft...although they may get a few navalized Tejas on her...and I believe for the Indians, that that is a critical thing for them to do, even if they are not as capable as the Mig-29K.

The Indians simply have to develop their own indigenous industries.

The Chinese, to a large extent, already have. And they chose to go that route early on.

Deino said:

I don't think so ... They had the original ship but not the blueprints.

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There was a story (not a solid proof) that 40 tonnes of the blueprints send to CHina in 8 trucks

"As a precaution, the next day he shipped the 40 tonnes of blueprints for the carrier overland to China in eight trucks. There also was a charge of US$10 million for late payment due to difficulties raising the funds during the"

Jeff Head said:

Compared to what they have been working with for coastal defense, like the Type 37, the Type 056 does represent a huge step forward. They still have a massively long and complicated shoreline to defend. The Type 056 is a GREAT tool to do that with....and they need a lot of them.

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Jeff - name just one army around the world which would come up with an idea of amphibious operation on the Chinese coast! There's none of them! Japanese did that but:
1) technical edge,
2) out of the box thinking that they introduced during Sino-Japanese War with a fast assault concept delivered from the sea.
Nowadays you can effectevely strike the infrastructure on the coast from behind the 'second island chain' and once you're into first island chain - you can cover entire PRC territory from Himalayas and Talkamakan Desert to Shanghai and Beijing.

Those vessels can't protect PLAN from the conventional subs in the East China Sea. Can they?

Jeff Head said:

The Type 055 is going to even be more so.

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Well, I have no doubts about that. But that's fully offensive weapon, Type 055 if you would use those. Those could be great platforms but for what? You can base all those missiles aboard much cheaper platform. Is Type 055 some kind of tech demonstrator like DDG 100 program? We don't know anything about that. If there's electrical power maintained for some 30 years forward plans deployed?

Jeff Head said:

And make no mistake...they are researching them. Rail guns, Lasers, Hypervelocity delivery craft, all of those things. The US May be on the verge of actually introducing some of those things...but I do n0ot believe the Chinese are that terribly far behind.

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They might not be too far behind the tech but remember - Japanese introduced Yagi antenna but it was British that made the use of those and it gave a technological edge to the US Navy in the WWII. And for now Chinese side can keep up (at best) with US technology. Do they have anyone to push it to the limits, introduce, take the blame for failures?

Jeff Head said:

It is not easy to make up such a gap...but they are methodically doing so.

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PLAN wasn't harmless even 10 years ago, they can inflict some serious damage without a doubt nowadays and it will become even bigger danger in the near future. But - is there a single idea emerging out of China that you could call 'groundbreaking'? Or they're just making up for that gap with an intent to make things of their own but without any experience in introducing anthing new? Going through painful period of failure? If they had plans they should introduce those some 10 years ago. Not 10 years from now.

Janiz said:

Jeff - name just one army around the world which would come up with an idea of amphibious operation on the Chinese coast! There's none of them!
Those vessels can't protect PLAN from the conventional subs in the East China Sea. Can they?
Well, I have no doubts about that. But that's fully offensive weapon,

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There are all sorts of dangers that they must be ready to defend against in any case.

EEZ violations, Fishery violations, piracy, smugglers, special forces, recon of coast be potential belligerents, submarine incursions, etc. Despite the unlikelihood of invasion, in which case the Type 056 would only be a trip wire, they have all of those other duties that they Type 056 is much better suited for..

Janiz said:

Type 055 if you would use those. Those could be great platforms but for what? You can base all those missiles aboard much cheaper platform. Is Type 055 some kind of tech demonstrator like DDG 100 program? We don't know anything about that. If there's electrical power maintained for some 30 years forward plans deployed?

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They are going to be excellent vessels for area anti-air coverage for their large task forces of carriers, LHDs, etc. or as Flagships for SAGs.

Janiz said:

They might not be too far behind the tech but remember - Japanese introduced Yagi antenna but it was British that made the use of those and it gave a technological edge to the US Navy in the WWII. And for now Chinese side can keep up (at best) with US technology. Do they have anyone to push it to the limits, introduce, take the blame for failures?PLAN wasn't harmless even 10 years ago, they can inflict some serious damage without a doubt nowadays and it will become even bigger danger in the near future. But - is there a single idea emerging out of China that you could call 'groundbreaking'? Or they're just making up for that gap with an intent to make things of their own but without any experience in introducing anthing new? Going through painful period of failure? If they had plans they should introduce those some 10 years ago. Not 10 years from now.

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Yes I think the Chinese are principally trying to catch up and establish as much parity as they can with what the US is doing.. The US is the principle concern.

But they are no doubt looking at innovative things as well which would be top secret projects and hard for you or I to know about. But I have no doubts that they are doing so and that US and other allied intelligence agencies are trying to ascertain what they are looking at, even if you or I do not know.

Given what they have done in all of these other areas...I do not believe they would forget or ignore purely emerging and out of the box technologies.

Janiz said:

Jeff, do you know how much it takes to introduce anything new in the PLAN? New ideas, designs, moving things forward to the edge? Those things in the video were done more than 15 years ago. If there's someone who could push changes through in the command is a mystery. They're doing something but nothing fresh. If there's time to push new ideas is right now - when they're growing. Not when stagnation and replacement will come from this wave of 'new toys' some 30 years forward.

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The Chinese Navy and Chinese military's path of R&D is immensely opaque, even more opaque than their procurement decisions.
If you're suggesting that there is no active R&D into future capabilities and doctrines, I think that's being a little bit presumptive, isn't it? If anything, considering the Chinese Navy and military's overall path of rapid development in the last decade, it should be reasonable to assume that they recognize the continuing importance of domestic R&D, especially as they are pushing up to the forefront of some existing established concepts and capabilities.

My only problem with PLAN is - when you have all those money why are you making loads of rudimentary 056 class ships which will be able to push Brunei Navy back home instead of pushing new ideas which will give you an edge for the future? Not that have anything about them but all they could in case of war would be going from one naval base on the coast to another waiting for what? Because bigger boys with more powerful radars won't have to go against them with some serious money wasted on keeping them alive. Is the problem within PLAN's nowadays officials? They don't have any visionaries in the top echelons? The tech difference is somewhat 20 years backwards like many users here wouldn't like to see? Or they're waiting for the end of the world? Because Wunderwaffe theorem is outdated - Japanese and Germans already showed that.

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I'm not really sure what you're asking -- are you suggesting that the 056 class corvettes are unnecessary for the Chinese Navy's requirements, or that they are not "innovative," or both?

Because I think few people would say that the 056 class corvettes are inconsistent with the Navy's requirements, especially when considering the other procurements of the Navy.
You can argue the 056 class isn't a groundbreaking design and that it doesn't offer any groundbreaking technologies, but is that the metric to which the 056 class (or any military asset) should be measured at, instead of measuring them by how well they fulfill their intended mission? (do you even know what the role of the 056 class corvette is meant to be?)

And what has wunderwaffes or Brunei Navy got to do with anything? I think your "only problem with PLAN" is not very well described.