PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Blitzo

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I suspect they can get the minimum surface escort ships needed for 3 CSG and 3 ESG ready by 2020, if not earlier, with enough surface combatants left for an SAG or two if needed.

Assuming an ESG needs 2 FFG and 2 DDGs, and a CSG needs 3-4 FFGs and 3 DDGs, then 3 of each will need 18ish FFGs and 15 DDGs in total. Clearly the PLAN already meets those numbers on paper, but to have all those FFGs be 054A (or the next generation frigate), and all DDGs to be 052C, 052D or 055, will take until 2020.

Also important is AORs. The PLAN currently has four 903/As with another two under various stages of construction/fitting out, and two older 905s. There is also the single 908. In theory, by 2020 PLAN could have enough modern AORs for 3 CSGs and 3 ESGs, but the 903As and 905s are a little bit small for true blue water operations, as well as slow to keep up with CSGs. What they really need are a few large fast combat support ships like the Supply class. They can still form a few good groups together with what they'll have by 2020, but they won't be able to move as fast as they'd like and they may have to assign two 903As per group.


The kicker is the actual LPD/LHA and CV construction, as well as SSN escort.

the chinese shipbuilding industry has shown they can build LPDs to an acceptable PLAN standard and at a fairly decent rate. The problem is the PLAN don't seem interested immediately in building more. The industry has also shown medium sized LHDs for export, with suggestions the PLAN are interested in bigger LHAs for their own fleet, but construction doesn't look on the immediate horizon. Landing craft, helicopters, are also challenges to be considered; they have the technology to produce competent, modern complements for future amphibs, they just can't seem to build them fast enough.

The situation for carriers is similar, if not a little bleaker; the PLAN carrier programme seems limited to liaoning at the moment, despite the fact that we know there must be behind the scenes business regarding domestic carrier development. At the most optimistic projection (i.e.: we see construction this year) we will only see the first domestic carrier operational at 2020 at the very earliest and it won't be fully combat capable. Then there are some performance issues regarding CATOBAR vs STOBAR (specifically fixed wing AEWC, and possibly whether J-15 can take off at MTOW on STOBAR), as well as training competent crews. Production of J-15s and future Y-7 AEWC are also important factors.

Finally, the PLAN can never truly feel secure until they have a good underwater escort, and even the latest SSN that some describe as 093B isn't at virginia or astute levels, not to mention their production rate is too low anyway. But in situations where the PLAN are not facing a technologically capable military in high intensity combat, then their relative SSN deficiency probably won't matter.


In the next few years it looks like the PLAN will be focused on building surface combatants. I think their number of DDGs and FFGs will indicate to us just the kind of power projection assets they'll want to field. It makes sense in a way, to develop and train escort ships first before committing to more expensive and more vulnerable power projection ships.
 
I suspect they can get the minimum surface escort ships needed for 3 CSG and 3 ESG ready by 2020, if not earlier, with enough surface combatants left for an SAG or two if needed.

Assuming an ESG needs 2 FFG and 2 DDGs, and a CSG needs 3-4 FFGs and 3 DDGs, then 3 of each will need 18ish FFGs and 15 DDGs in total. Clearly the PLAN already meets those numbers on paper, but to have all those FFGs be 054A (or the next generation frigate), and all DDGs to be 052C, 052D or 055, will take until 2020.

Also important is AORs. The PLAN currently has four 903/As with another two under various stages of construction/fitting out, and two older 905s. There is also the single 908. In theory, by 2020 PLAN could have enough modern AORs for 3 CSGs and 3 ESGs, but the 903As and 905s are a little bit small for true blue water operations, as well as slow to keep up with CSGs. What they really need are a few large fast combat support ships like the Supply class. They can still form a few good groups together with what they'll have by 2020, but they won't be able to move as fast as they'd like and they may have to assign two 903As per group.


The kicker is the actual LPD/LHA and CV construction, as well as SSN escort.

the chinese shipbuilding industry has shown they can build LPDs to an acceptable PLAN standard and at a fairly decent rate. The problem is the PLAN don't seem interested immediately in building more. The industry has also shown medium sized LHDs for export, with suggestions the PLAN are interested in bigger LHAs for their own fleet, but construction doesn't look on the immediate horizon. Landing craft, helicopters, are also challenges to be considered; they have the technology to produce competent, modern complements for future amphibs, they just can't seem to build them fast enough.

The situation for carriers is similar, if not a little bleaker; the PLAN carrier programme seems limited to liaoning at the moment, despite the fact that we know there must be behind the scenes business regarding domestic carrier development. At the most optimistic projection (i.e.: we see construction this year) we will only see the first domestic carrier operational at 2020 at the very earliest and it won't be fully combat capable. Then there are some performance issues regarding CATOBAR vs STOBAR (specifically fixed wing AEWC, and possibly whether J-15 can take off at MTOW on STOBAR), as well as training competent crews. Production of J-15s and future Y-7 AEWC are also important factors.

Finally, the PLAN can never truly feel secure until they have a good underwater escort, and even the latest SSN that some describe as 093B isn't at virginia or astute levels, not to mention their production rate is too low anyway. But in situations where the PLAN are not facing a technologically capable military in high intensity combat, then their relative SSN deficiency probably won't matter.


In the next few years it looks like the PLAN will be focused on building surface combatants. I think their number of DDGs and FFGs will indicate to us just the kind of power projection assets they'll want to field. It makes sense in a way, to develop and train escort ships first before committing to more expensive and more vulnerable power projection ships.

There is no point in the PLAN rushing or expanding either CVs, LHDs, or LPDs if the associated aircraft, LCACs, or sub escorts either aren't available or aren't up to par with needs yet. They would just make sitting ducks and white elephants wasting money, manpower, and time.

I would say the PLAN is merely one generation or less behind the world's leaders in their non-specialized surface combatants. If the PLAN can catch up with the 055, a 054A successor, build enough 056s (this design is kind of obsolete at birth though it may be the best the PLAN can afford for the role for the next 5 to 10 years), and maintain or upgrade enough 022s they would have solid command of the seas within the 1st island chain for the next 5 years (not counting the introduction of lasers and railguns for the USN which is absolutely revolutionary) assuming the PLAAF also keeps pace with world aerospace defense developments.
 

Blitzo

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I think the impact of lasers and railguns won't truly offer new capabilities on a large scale until mid 2020s at earliest.

PLA also have their own active future weapons programmes, so I am not particularly concerned on that front.


In a way the PLAN has already caught up with the current world leaders in surface combatant tech. 052D offers the same bells and whistles as your "average" top of the line DDG, if not a little bit more.

055 will probably take 052D's capabilities and put more of it in a larger hull with more powerful C&C.
The next big leap will be IEP as the lynchpin for all them fancy DEWs and railguns, and by all accounts that programme is going quite well too.


It's probably worth mentioning even if they do build LPDs, LHAs, and CVs before consolidating escorts, it doesn't necessarily mean they will be white elephants. PLAN almost definitely won't seek to use these assets against a technological peer anyway and definitely not in blue water. Hell, even once the PLAN has 40+ modern FFGs and 40+ DDGs I still doubt they'll be able to compete with the USN in blue water simply because of the array of US military bases around the globe.
 
I would still like to see the PLAN experiment with a single LHD, similar to having the Liaoning to learn about CVs.

I am not concerned about the PLAN not being able to break out of the 1st island chain but its minimum deterrence is to be able to defeat any opponent within it in conjunction with the PLAAF and ground based air and coastal defense. Otherwise it would be susceptible to having its territory as the battlefield (even if just as a bombing range) and that might as well be losing the war in this age and at China's level of development and population density.

It is also a simple matter of aspiration and amusement. It wouldn't be any fun watching the Chinese military if they didn't care to develop, potentially to the level of the world's military technological leaders who are definitely moving targets.
 

StopSquarkS

New Member
Oh well, they are flying too low, but I thought that was due to it being staged that way.

Now that I look at it, the resolution is pretty bad, not good at spotting PS myself.
 

A.Man

Major
No News Is Good News-Actually They Have Done Quite Few Tests On CV-16

rdn_523d297793b6f_zps24b193ee.jpg~original
 
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