PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Blitzo · Dec 31, 2013

Jeff Head said:
They are most certainly researching it, and trying to develop it. But they certainly have nothing operational yet.

At some point, they will have a prototype that they will test and test and test and work out all of the bugs. We have not seen that yet...but it is not something that we would necessarily see.

After that, they will rework the design to address the issues, and then an initial version will be set up at one of their naval facilities for final evaluation. Once that happens, and they are satisfied with its performance, then they would begin building them into their next class of carrier (presuming they have the power issues worked out to provide it with enough power...probably an integrated power system on a nuclear vessel), and then as that was being built, they would also put one into their Naval Training Facility.

Chances are that the PLAN is many years away from having any operational EMALS catapult.

My own personal guess is that the PLAN will proceed with the following basic schedule (give or take 3-4 years):

2011-2015 - Liaoning commissioned and worked up. (No catapults)
2014-2017 - Two new, indigenous STOBAR Carriers build. (Chance of designing for a future steam catapult)
2018-2020 - New STOBAR Carriers worked up without catapults.
2022-2025 - New CATOBAR Carrier builds. (Conventional power with Steam Catapults)
2024-2027 - Second CATOBAR Carrier builds. (Conventional power with Steam Catapults)
2026-2029 - Two new CATOBAR Carrier work up,
2030-2032 - Potential retrofit of steam cats back to 1st two indigenous carriers if they were designed for it.
2034-2038 - 1st nuclear powered carrier with potential EMALS catapults builds.
2038-2040 - 1st nuclear powered carrier works up, and then replaces Liaoning in 2042 or so.
2042 - Forward PLAN builds nuclear carriers, maintaining 5 carriers and replacing old ones as they retire.

I doubt that they'd bother with a steam catapult before EMALS, especially when they arguably have more experience with the relevant technologies relevant for the latter than the former. Just because the USN developed an expertise with steam catapults for decades before moving onto EMALS doesn't mean china has to — especially if EMALS has no major prerequisite technological base rooted in the fundamentals of steam catapults.

If the chinese shipbuilding industry really has IEPS ready to go, I'd agree with your time table, but make the first two STOBAR carriers IEPS with the option to refit for EMALS rather than the more space complex steam cat.

I also think they'll reach the five carrier threshold a decade earlier than 2040, but it's early days yet.

Franklin · Dec 31, 2013

Bltizo said:
From these photos it is pretty clear that the PLAN have done a lot more comprehensive exercises than previous pictures had suggested.

Always something to keep in mind, especially for the liaoning. Just because they don't reveal to us select photos doesn't mean they haven't done it.

Can you explain what do you mean with "a lot more comprehensive exercises than previous pictures had suggested" ?

The fly by is a combination of JH-7A and Flankers from the PLAN.

Blitzo · Dec 31, 2013

Franklin said:
Can you explain what do you mean with "a lot more comprehensive exercises than previous pictures had suggested" ?

The fly by is a combination of JH-7A and Flankers from the PLAN.

Well first of all, the only pictures we've had of the liaoning's SCS excursion before this were pictures of it sailing alone. we knew it was accompanied by 2 054As and 2 051Cs to the South, and there was an LST somewhere in the mix too, given one intercepted the cowpens a month ago. However there hadn't been pictorial evidence.

But these pictures show us they also had an 052C (at least) and had 4 JH-7As and J-11BHs out there for an exercise of some sort as well (you don't simply send that many aircraft for a mere "fly by").

What I mean is that previous pictures have given us no "proof" of naval escorts and certainly no"proof" (nor was there even significant suggestion) that the liaoning was mixing with land based air supports. So that constitutes "a lot more comprehensive" in my book.

Engineer · Dec 31, 2013

Jeff Head said:
They are most certainly researching it, and trying to develop it. But they certainly have nothing operational yet.

At some point, they will have a prototype that they will test and test and test and work out all of the bugs. We have not seen that yet...but it is not something that we would necessarily see.

After that, they will rework the design to address the issues, and then an initial version will be set up at one of their naval facilities for final evaluation. Once that happens, and they are satisfied with its performance, then they would begin building them into their next class of carrier (presuming they have the power issues worked out to provide it with enough power...probably an integrated power system on a nuclear vessel), and then as that was being built, they would also put one into their Naval Training Facility.

Chances are that the PLAN is many years away from having any operational EMALS catapult.

My own personal guess is that the PLAN will proceed with the following basic schedule (give or take 3-4 years):

2011-2015 - Liaoning commissioned and worked up. (No catapults)
2014-2017 - Two new, indigenous STOBAR Carriers build. (Chance of designing for a future steam catapult)
2018-2020 - New STOBAR Carriers worked up without catapults.
2022-2025 - New CATOBAR Carrier builds. (Conventional power with Steam Catapults)
2024-2027 - Second CATOBAR Carrier builds. (Conventional power with Steam Catapults)
2026-2029 - Two new CATOBAR Carrier work up,
2030-2032 - Potential retrofit of steam cats back to 1st two indigenous carriers if they were designed for it.
2034-2038 - 1st nuclear powered carrier with potential EMALS catapults builds.
2038-2040 - 1st nuclear powered carrier works up, and then replaces Liaoning in 2042 or so.
2042 - Forward PLAN builds nuclear carriers, maintaining 5 carriers and replacing old ones as they retire.

It actually takes a lot more power to run steam catapults than it is to run EMALS due to inefficiency of a steam system. So, having nuclear power wouldn't be a make or break deal for installing EMALS onto a carrier.

Having two systems as your time table suggests will require two times the R&D budget, two different logistical systems for support, and two different sets of personnel. It will be extremely cost inefficient and nothing is interchangeable. Also, producing only few units of each type is exactly how costs end up as astronomical. There is next to zero chance that PLAN will go with steam catapult and knowingly end up with such huge penalty in costs. PLAN will most likely just hold off building any CATOBAR carrier until EMALS becomes available.

kwaigonegin · Jan 1, 2014

Engineer said:
Tags: China; Liaoning; TV; aircraft carrier; breathing apparatus; internal accommodation; private bathroom;

I don't know if that's the captain's quarters and head, XO's cabin or flag offices (doubt it) or what not but if I'm a soviet sailor who served on board the Varyag I would be immensely jeolous of those pictures!!
I've never been on board a Soviet carrier but I have been on board an Udaloy class destroyer and let's just say their living quarters and accomodations leave a lot to be desired!! The captain or political officer's room are nice but not anywhere else!!!

It's good to know that the modern PLAN not only cares about their warfighting capabilities but put serious efforts in making the crew comfortable as well. A happy well fed crew is a good productive crew. I like to see pictures of the galley and chow hall of the Liaoning.

It's natural to talk about weapons, systems, sensors, aircrafts etc however what interest me almost as much are the 'boring' type of things that make a ship a ship and how the crew live their lives on board etc.

chuck731 · Jan 1, 2014

That's one hell of circuit board and wire bundle just to drive a analogue wall clock, what does that circuit-board do?

Btw, iPad appears to be tolerated onboard the Liaoning judging from the Apple wall charger. That might be a serious security vulnerability.

Skywatcher · Jan 1, 2014

If the Ipad doesn't come in contact or communications with any of the Varyag's systems, then it's fine.

As for the clock, it might be built to military spec with some obscure requirements (communicating what time the alarm goes off to the central system?).

kwaigonegin · Jan 1, 2014

chuck731 said:
That's one hell of circuit board and wire bundle just to drive a analogue wall clock, what does that circuit-board do?

Btw, iPad appears to be tolerated onboard the Liaoning judging from the Apple wall charger. That might be a serious security vulnerability.

That simple looking wall clock is sync with the ships clock which itself is sync with an atomic clock I imagined. Now why is it 'analog' instead of digital I do not know. It's technically a digical clock with a mechanically driven analog face.....As for ipads it is most likely a personal one but even if it isn't no biggie because ipads have been issued to us military personnels as well even for combat operations. An iPad is just a front end inteface/input device. You can 'milspec' it via secure data linking and custom applications.

chuck731 · Jan 1, 2014

kwaigonegin said:
That simple looking wall clock is sync with the ships clock which itself is sync with an atomic clock I imagined. Now why is it 'analog' instead of digital I do not know. It's technically a digical clock with a mechanically driven analog face.....As for ipads it is most likely a personal one but even if it isn't no biggie because ipads have been issued to us military personnels as well even for combat operations. An iPad is just a front end inteface/input device. You can 'milspec' it via secure data linking and custom applications.

A analogue clock that syncs with an outside atomic clock wouldn't need so much external circuitry. I have a Chinese made analogue clock that receives and syncs automatically with one of five atomically controlled radio timing signals broadcast around the world. The box behind the clock face that contains all the circuits, signal receiver, aerial, as well as the AA battery, is little larger than an iPad wall charger.

kwaigonegin · Jan 1, 2014

chuck731 said:
A analogue clock that syncs with an outside atomic clock wouldn't need so much external circuitry. I have a Chinese made analogue clock that receives and syncs automatically with one of five atomically controlled radio timing signals broadcast around the world. The box behind the clock face that contains all the circuits, signal receiver, aerial, as well as the AA battery, is little larger than an iPad wall charger.

I didn't say the clock itself syncs with the atomic clock although that could very well be... The complex circuitry in the clock is wired into the ships internal system

PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Franklin

Captain

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Engineer

Major

kwaigonegin

Colonel

chuck731

Banned Idiot

Skywatcher

Captain

kwaigonegin

Colonel

chuck731

Banned Idiot

kwaigonegin

Colonel