PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Franklin said:

How many pilots are there on board a USN carrier ? Is it one pilot per plane or is there some kind of reserve ?

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Well, a Nimitz class nuclear carrier has a compliment for the operation of the ship of about 3,200 sailors, non-comms, and officers.

The airwing for that carrier is usually approximately 2,400 personnel enlisted, non-comms, and officers.

Those 2,400 personnel comprise the mechanics/maintenance personnel, the air ops people, command structure, the pilots, electronics officers, co-pilots, air crews, etc for the various types of aircraft available on the carrier. Usually that is something on the order pof 60 aircraft these days...but could grow to 90 aircraft as required (which would of course increase the numbers of personnel involved with the aircraft).

F-18s can have one or two crew, depending on the model. A single pilot for F-18Cs or F-18Es. Two for F-18Ds or F-18Fs. E-2C AEW aircraft, in addition to the pilot have large crews to operate all of the AEW equipment. EA-6Bs or EA-18Gs have two crew. A C-2 Greyhound can have 2-4 crew. Helicopters, depending on their mission can have 3-6 crew.

The airwing embarks with enough personnel and flight crew to meet all the service and flight requiremnts for every single aircraft embarked. This includes additional personnel for attrition as required. Whether that be sickness, injury, loss, etc.

mr.bean said:

I guess you also summed up the difference between the Chinese carrier and the Indian carrier that they just got. India got the Russians to build everything for them and then coach them every step of the way while the Chinese are 100% opposite and doing it themselves. it doesn't take a genius to conclude who's going to be better at this in a few years down the line.

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Well, in answer to this, I'd be careful about presuming too much here and particularly about making such comparisons. Those rarely end well. Besides, "better" in this context may be a highly subjective term.

Just to go off topic and address this before it turns into a "bash the Indians," thing, remember, the Indians have been operating carriers for over fifty years. They already have a lot of experience. It is true that the Russians rebuilt the Gorhkov for them into the Vikramaditya, but they did it according to the Indians specifications for their particular needs. And for the last 14-16 months, literally hundreds of Indian crew members have been living in Russia working with the Russians to learn their carrier.

Clearly, what the Chinese have done is very admirable, and a great thing. They have completely rebuilt the Varyag themselves, launched her, trialed her, commissioned her, and are now working her up. No one will know the Liaoning better than the PLAN.

With the Indians, they are going to have to learn the Virkamaditya that way...and it will take time. But they already have the experience of the people who have been there in Russia, and they have their own fifty year history to help them.

In addition, the Indians are in fact already building their own indigenous carrier from scratch, and have launched her. They will spend 3 years outfitting her and then another year working her up for delivery in 2017. So, they are also taking the track to do for themsleves as the Chinese did...except they are building that one entirely from scratch. The Chinese I am sure will build their own from scratch in the very near future.

Both countries are making significant advancements in the carrier operations and experience. Both are increasing rapidly in their naval air arm capabilities.

Who will be better? Hehehe...I bet that will depend almost entirely on who you ask. I believe in the next 6-8 years, both will get pretty good at operating the carriers, and carrier groups, that they have.

As it is, this thread is about the Chinese carrier. Comparisons between the two are almost inevitable...but let's try to hold them to a minimum and speak to the PLAN's capabilites as they exist. We can each go over to the Indian thread and discuss their carrier there, without ever getting into the, "look, mine is better than yours for X, Y and Z reasons," thing.

mr.bean said:

I guess you also summed up the difference between the Chinese carrier and the Indian carrier that they just got. India got the Russians to build everything for them and then coach them every step of the way while the Chinese are 100% opposite and doing it themselves. it doesn't take a genius to conclude who's going to be better at this in a few years down the line.

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It's a mistake to discount India's many decades of deck aviation experience.

Fair points people have made on the need to learn by doing. But we should also remember that the Liaoning is not the only practical learning tool the PLAN has at its disposal. They have built at least two full scale carrier simulators that we know of on land, and it has been explicitly stated in interviews with CCTV that the PLAN pilots and crews make extensive use of those land based facilities.

On top of what I said about debriefing and writing the manual on carrier ops, I would also like to add that it seems almost a certainty that a significant amount of time would have been spent by all relevant crews practicing and training at those carrier simulators prior to they going out to sea on the Liaoning.

Remember that the PLAN is frugal to the point of being cheap, and being a conventional carrier, the Liaoning is not cheap to operate when out at sea. So it makes a lot of sense to do as much training as possible on land before going out to sea to maximise the gains from the time spent out at sea.

Obviously, at some point you will get to a point where you have learnt as much as you can on land and simply have to be out at sea with all the real toys to train properly, but I think we can all agree that that day is not here yet, and until then, for basic stuff like learning and practicing deck positioning and coordination, using a full scale land based mock up is not a great deal different from being in the carrier itself. Even for complext stuff like managing a full flight deck of fighters, its probably better to start off on land and train everyone to a decent standard before doing it on the carrier.

There is the added advantage that it is far easier to use mock ups or even use real J11s as stand ins to simulate a crowded carrier deck, which would be impossible, or at least very impractical to do on the Liaoning before the PLAN has a decent sized fleet of J15s read.

The PLAN has a long tradition of making sure it is people who are waiting on equipment rather the other way round, and I think many people around the world, and even in this board may be taken aback at just how quickly the PLAN can up the tempo once they start getting production J15s in decent numbers. When that happens, it would be the perfect illustration of what taking the time to lay solid foundations can allow one to achieve later on.

mr.bean said:

I guess you also summed up the difference between the Chinese carrier and the Indian carrier that they just got. India got the Russians to build everything for them and then coach them every step of the way while the Chinese are 100% opposite and doing it themselves. it doesn't take a genius to conclude who's going to be better at this in a few years down the line.

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Its probably best to avoid direct comparison between China's and India's carrier programs to avoid the inevitable pissing contest that seem to spark as soon as you compare the two.

Blackstone said:

It's a mistake to discount India's many decades of deck aviation experience.

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I wouldn't discount india's aviation experience they clearly have a huge head start over china. i look at the entire aircraft carrier/battle group project in terms of national comprehensive strength of a nation (that's a term only the Chinese use). if you're serious and going for the long haul then you have to learn to do everything yourself. suppose india and china both driving cars in the freeway, then both cars transmission blows. india calls Russia period. china calls it's own tow truck to haul that thing back to it's own garage, it has it's own team of mechanics to fix the car, it has it's own factory to make that automatic transmission and all parts needed to be replaced (anyone who has an auto transmission replaced would know how horribly expensive that will be!). even if one disregard the benefits of developing a real military industrial capability and say india can always write a check and buy everything it needs, china has a much bigger wallet and checkbook than india. so in the long run i'm more optimistic in china's program.

plawolf said:

Its probably best to avoid direct comparison between China's and India's carrier programs to avoid the inevitable pissing contest that seem to spark as soon as you compare the two.

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Blackstone said:

It's a mistake to discount India's many decades of deck aviation experience.

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Well said by both plawolf and Blackstone. Let's avoid the comparison game and focus on what the thread is about, the PLAN carrier program and the progres they are making.

I believe they are making good, measured progress. Very methodical, perhaps not as fast as some would desire, but I am sure that it is in keeping with the PLAN's goals and schedule...and taking into account the inevitable learning and other issues they have to deal with.

I for one, hope that this upcoming cruise/exercise with the two Type 051Cs and the two Type 054As will also include some more flight operations and that we will see perhaps 4 or more J-15s embarked.

Time will tell.

Jeff Head said:

Oh, I know, and my response was meant much more light hearted as well. I was not really serious about seeking any kind of confrontation or games of "tag" at this point.

Still, if they are going to operate in the blue water with an exercise like this, it would be nice (and I would expect) that they would have an SSN with them. To gain experience operating together.

This is something they are learning for themselves from scratch. There's a lot of material, and experience out there about it...but still they have to develop their own policies and procedures, and strategy on how they, the PLAN, intend to use this new tool they now have.

That's the real benefit of exercises like this, and the more they do of it, the better. Oh, there probably will be a US SSN lurking somewhere...but they will be trying to be quiet and simply gather info. Not looking for any kind of confrontation or twisting the tail at this point I am sure.

Also, Xiabonana...thanks for the link. Here's one of those pics.

Looks like a dusk or early morning picture.

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Can you say PING!, PING! PING,,,,,, PING,PING,PING,PING! If our sub boys are allowed to run and gun, they will be HOT on the tail of the Dragon, you can bet the Liaoning will pick up some "assets" along the way, and NOBODY is gonna tell anybody where their "unterseabotten" are operating, all very kool, can you say "decks awash" "take her down and rig for silent running"..............."aye, Cap'n, hhhaaaarrrrvvvvv!"

OH, and jus so nobody feels left out, you can bet we already have some sound signatures on the Vic, and the NERVOUS, oh I mean "Nerpa"

I am smiling, and my wife asked me why I was "smirking", I had to slap myself..."sorry guys, I'm OK now" brat out

OOPs, I'm not done yet, it will be like Nascar, hope nobody gets into nobody else, there could be some "rubbin" and "bumpin"

mr.bean said:

I wouldn't discount india's aviation experience they clearly have a huge head start over china. i look at the entire aircraft carrier/battle group project in terms of national comprehensive strength of a nation (that's a term only the Chinese use). if you're serious and going for the long haul then you have to learn to do everything yourself. suppose india and china both driving cars in the freeway, then both cars transmission blows. india calls Russia period. china calls it's own tow truck to haul that thing back to it's own garage, it has it's own team of mechanics to fix the car, it has it's own factory to make that automatic transmission and all parts needed to be replaced (anyone who has an auto transmission replaced would know how horribly expensive that will be!). even if one disregard the benefits of developing a real military industrial capability and say india can always write a check and buy everything it needs, china has a much bigger wallet and checkbook than india. so in the long run i'm more optimistic in china's program.

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Yes, but you forget that India is building her own aircraft carrier the INS Vikrant from scratch. No doubt that China will also do that in the future but for now India has the head start on that.

As for the Liaoning vs the Vikramaditya India in the short run will have the upper hand as it has more experience in operating carriers and they already have their air wing in place. But in the long run i will favour the Liaoning because the Vikramaditya has serious drawbacks as a ship and will never be as efficient or effective as the Liaoning. Even the much better INS Vikrant that India is building now won't be as good as the Liaoning. Because the INS Vikrant has basically the same layout and configuration as the Liaoning but only much smaller 65000 tons vs 40000 tons.

Jeff Head said:

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Greats new they are doing night time operations! Wow

I wonder when that gif was taken.

I suspect if more extensive air training has occurred than we know, and we simply haven't got videos or pictures of it yet.