PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The Liaoning has her J15 landed in the evening. Sorry I can't post the pictures directly because the image size exceeds my quota. This is the link of the thread on CJDBY forum. Not sure if subsequent night operations are carried out. These seemed to be screenshots of a CCTV video. I'll try to find that video and post later

I want to see some photos taken about midnight when it's pitch black with more aircraft on deck with. The PLAN seems to always to have the deck clear when conducting flight operations..How about spotting a few boneyard aircraft on the roof to simulate real flight deck ops.

The old pattern of a few weeks rest and a few weeks at sea. I wish they would increase the intensity of their training by going out to sea more often. Why do they need to spend so much time in port anyway ? The crew of the Liaoning has been working and living on that ship for more than a year. They know their tasks and the ship inside out by now. They have qualified about 20 pilots now if each time they go out to sea they qualify a batch of 5 pilots per sea trial. The J-15 is suppose to be in production from the middle of this year. So then they have all the pieces in their hands the ship, the crew, the pilots and the aircraft is in production. So how long will it take before they put all those pieces together ?

I hope to see some night flying this time.

Agreed! ^^^ They need to step up operations...big time.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
You don't really know your ship inside and out until it's been in intensive combat operation, and has taken damage.

In peace time, the closest approach is intensive operation in closely simulated combat conditions, where accidents and casualties have resulted.

Liaoning is nowhere close.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
You don't really know your ship inside and out until it's been in intensive combat operation, and has taken damage.

In peace time, the closest approach is intensive operation in closely simulated combat conditions, where accidents and casualties have resulted.

Liaoning is nowhere close.

Exactly ^^^ long ago, 02.06.2007 I posted this;

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/navy/latest-plan-aircraft-carrier-info-photos-4714.html#post55301

But the real training of the ships crew will take place at sea. all the simulators in the PLAN cannot take the place of actually putting the ship to sea with real sailors to get the feel, the life, the quirks of the ship in their minds. So the ship and it's crew act as one. For a sailor nothing and I mean nothing replaces actual operational training at sea. Without at sea training the sailors of the Varyag will only be partially ready to operate the ship.

In my opinion it will take the PLAN 3-5 years to get the ship fully mission capable.

Fair winds and following seas to those PLAN sailors that will some day man the Varyag.

I just don't see the intensity of training I'd like to see aboard CV-16. I feel the Chinese are being over cautious. Of course we don't see what else is going on aboard Liaoning. Not enough pictures about what the sailors aboard are doing aond training on.

The first time I saw the video of the "first" landing on CV-16 I was impressed how the PLAN was directing & handling the aircraft. It seems to me they are still frozen in time on the first few launches and recoveries.

Where's photos of the firefighter drills? Rigging the barricade? Is there I fire truck on the flight deck? if so I may have missed it.

Just my opinion based on my USN service.

Bottom line is I just, as always want to see more!
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The old patern of a few weeks rest and a few weeks at sea. I wish they would increase the intensity of their training by going out to sea more often. Why do they need to spend so much time in port anyway ? The crew of the Liaoning has been working and living on that ship for more than a year. They know their tasks and the ship inside out by now. They have qualified about 20 pilots now if each time they go out to sea they qualify a batch of 5 pilots per sea trial. The J-15 is suppose to be in production from the middle of this year. So then they have all the pieces in their hands the ship, the crew, the pilots and the aircraft is in production. So how long will it take before they put all those pieces together ?

I hope to see some night flying this time.

This is China's first carrier. They are literally writing the book on carrier ops as they go along. They do not have an established set of procedures that they can just teach their crews and pilots and train them up. They also need to establish those procedures in the first place, which can be time consuming.

I think the long breaks in between going out to sea is to allow the crews and pilots to be debriefed so that their experiences and thoughts can be compiled, reviewed, analysis, codified and ultimately refined and improved upon.

It would be simply a waste of time if they go out regularly and train their crews up perfectly in a set of procedures which ultimately proved to be flawed or wrong.

Some mistakes are obvious to spot, others can only be revealed by actually doing stuff in the field. To that end, it would not surprise me if the PLAN have multiple crews each trained in rival theories in key areas like deck handing, hanger procedures and what not each competing with each other so the PLAN can evaluate what the best method is and cut down on trial and error time.

The Chinese place great emphasis on building strong foundations, and start slow. But that earlier hard work will pay off later as you build on that foundation and can accelerate your progress from a position of strength with little risk of earlier cut corners co in back to haunt you later on.

It is a pretty much the first lesson young Chinese are taught, and that principle is reinforced throughout the academic lives of pretty much all Chinese students, it can be seen in all the big projects the Chinese government and most Chinese companies embark upon, so it would be out of character if they did not apply that principle to the Liaoning.

Right now the PLAN are laying the foundations. It may take them longer, but when they are done, they will be able to almost mass produce carrier crews and pilots and probably the carriers as well very quickly and build up a large carrier fleet in a fraction of the time it took with the Liaoning because they would have learnt all the important lessons they can learn from their slow by but methodical work with the Liaoning.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Great post plawolf..

This is China's first carrier. They are literally writing the book on carrier ops as they go along. They do not have an established set of procedures that they can just teach their crews and pilots and train them up. They also need to establish those procedures in the first place, which can be time consuming.

True but the procedures for operating a carrier have been long established. It's no secret and it's not that hard.

I think the long breaks in between going out to sea is to allow the crews and pilots to be debriefed so that their experiences and thoughts can be compiled, reviewed, analysis, codified and ultimately refined and improved upon.

It would be simply a waste of time if they go out regularly and train their crews up perfectly in a set of procedures which ultimately proved to be flawed or wrong.

Nope.. sailors need to be at sea correcting those procedures. The best training for sailors is at sea where there are no distractions. Debriefing and re-training is not that difficult.

Some mistakes are obvious to spot, others can only be revealed by actually doing stuff in the field. To that end, it would not surprise me if the PLAN have multiple crews each trained in rival theories in key areas like deck handing, hanger procedures and what not each competing with each other so the PLAN can evaluate what the best method is and cut down on trial and error time.

Interesting theroy.. well stated.

Great post plawolf. Great!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Oh I doubt 095 is in service, and my rather off hand comment wasn't insinuating the PLAN would seriously seek to play that game with an SSN.
Oh, I know, and my response was meant much more light hearted as well. I was not really serious about seeking any kind of confrontation or games of "tag" at this point.

Still, if they are going to operate in the blue water with an exercise like this, it would be nice (and I would expect) that they would have an SSN with them. To gain experience operating together.

This is something they are learning for themselves from scratch. There's a lot of material, and experience out there about it...but still they have to develop their own policies and procedures, and strategy on how they, the PLAN, intend to use this new tool they now have.

That's the real benefit of exercises like this, and the more they do of it, the better. Oh, there probably will be a US SSN lurking somewhere...but they will be trying to be quiet and simply gather info. Not looking for any kind of confrontation or twisting the tail at this point I am sure.

Also, Xiabonana...thanks for the link. Here's one of those pics.

Looks like a dusk or early morning picture.

201334jgdkvrfgv1hzbugv.jpg
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
This is China's first carrier. They are literally writing the book on carrier ops as they go along. They do not have an established set of procedures that they can just teach their crews and pilots and train them up. They also need to establish those procedures in the first place, which can be time consuming.

I think the long breaks in between going out to sea is to allow the crews and pilots to be debriefed so that their experiences and thoughts can be compiled, reviewed, analysis, codified and ultimately refined and improved upon.

It would be simply a waste of time if they go out regularly and train their crews up perfectly in a set of procedures which ultimately proved to be flawed or wrong.

Some mistakes are obvious to spot, others can only be revealed by actually doing stuff in the field. To that end, it would not surprise me if the PLAN have multiple crews each trained in rival theories in key areas like deck handing, hanger procedures and what not each competing with each other so the PLAN can evaluate what the best method is and cut down on trial and error time.

The Chinese place great emphasis on building strong foundations, and start slow. But that earlier hard work will pay off later as you build on that foundation and can accelerate your progress from a position of strength with little risk of earlier cut corners co in back to haunt you later on.

It is a pretty much the first lesson young Chinese are taught, and that principle is reinforced throughout the academic lives of pretty much all Chinese students, it can be seen in all the big projects the Chinese government and most Chinese companies embark upon, so it would be out of character if they did not apply that principle to the Liaoning.

Right now the PLAN are laying the foundations. It may take them longer, but when they are done, they will be able to almost mass produce carrier crews and pilots and probably the carriers as well very quickly and build up a large carrier fleet in a fraction of the time it took with the Liaoning because they would have learnt all the important lessons they can learn from their slow by but methodical work with the Liaoning.

I agree with most of what you say however sometimes there is this thing call the school of hard knocks. Being prepared and cautious is obviously a good thing and should be the SOP but in the extremely dangerous field of carrier aviation experience is everything and one can only get real experience in a high tempo control chaos environment. I think it's time Liaoning slowly step up it's operational tempo and pace so the aviation guys and deck handlers can learn to be not only be 'book smart' but think on their own and resolve issues in situations where things may not go as plan.

At the end of the day Liaoning is not a cruise ship or a musuem.. she a warship designed for war to go fight wars. There will be nothing easy or normal if or when that day comes and the more chaotic the 'training' is now the better prepared her crew will be in actual operations.
 

mr.bean

Junior Member
This is China's first carrier. They are literally writing the book on carrier ops as they go along. They do not have an established set of procedures that they can just teach their crews and pilots and train them up. They also need to establish those procedures in the first place, which can be time consuming.

I think the long breaks in between going out to sea is to allow the crews and pilots to be debriefed so that their experiences and thoughts can be compiled, reviewed, analysis, codified and ultimately refined and improved upon.

It would be simply a waste of time if they go out regularly and train their crews up perfectly in a set of procedures which ultimately proved to be flawed or wrong.

Some mistakes are obvious to spot, others can only be revealed by actually doing stuff in the field. To that end, it would not surprise me if the PLAN have multiple crews each trained in rival theories in key areas like deck handing, hanger procedures and what not each competing with each other so the PLAN can evaluate what the best method is and cut down on trial and error time.

The Chinese place great emphasis on building strong foundations, and start slow. But that earlier hard work will pay off later as you build on that foundation and can accelerate your progress from a position of strength with little risk of earlier cut corners co in back to haunt you later on.

It is a pretty much the first lesson young Chinese are taught, and that principle is reinforced throughout the academic lives of pretty much all Chinese students, it can be seen in all the big projects the Chinese government and most Chinese companies embark upon, so it would be out of character if they did not apply that principle to the Liaoning.

Right now the PLAN are laying the foundations. It may take them longer, but when they are done, they will be able to almost mass produce carrier crews and pilots and probably the carriers as well very quickly and build up a large carrier fleet in a fraction of the time it took with the Liaoning because they would have learnt all the important lessons they can learn from their slow by but methodical work with the Liaoning.

I guess you also summed up the difference between the Chinese carrier and the Indian carrier that they just got. India got the Russians to build everything for them and then coach them every step of the way while the Chinese are 100% opposite and doing it themselves. it doesn't take a genius to conclude who's going to be better at this in a few years down the line. ;)
 

vesicles

Colonel
Looks like a dusk or early morning picture.

201334jgdkvrfgv1hzbugv.jpg

Yeah, I think this is a nice demonstration of the methodical ways of the Chinese. It is clear to me that they are aiming for night landing. However, instead of going directly to night landing and hope for the best, they decided to begin by doing it with "low visibility" first. So instead of finding out problems in pitch black and with no way to improvise, they now could still identify issues they might have in night landing. And there is still enough light for the pilots and deck crew to improvise and avoid accidents.
 
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