Pakistan considering to buy either Eurofighter or Rafale

ger_mark said:

The Eurofighter has 3 ways to detect the F22

1st is the Captor Radar wich is a more or less a Usual Radar and it would detect the F22 on some Distance, wich distance we would only know if we test it.

2nd and best possibility for the Eurofighter to detect the F22 is its Pirate Infrered sensor, this would have no problem detection an F22 but it's Range is unknown and only known to be "serval dozend Kilometers"

3rd option is the Eurofighters passive detection system DASS wich would also wich works like a passive Radar, but it's Range is classified aswell

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The captor has a range of less than 150km against fighter sized targets. it will be much less agaisnt the f-22. The apg-77 has soem 190km. By the time the eurofighter see's the f-22, it will be dead. Lets not forget the Eurofighter still uses the AMERICAN aim-120c. The meteor isnt out yet.

No
The Captor Radar has an official detection Range of 185km against superconic fighter jets and over 370km against awac's size planes

its able to scan and follow 20 targets simultaniousely and its able to fight them at the same time

MIGleader said:

The captor has a range of less than 150km against fighter sized targets. it will be much less agaisnt the f-22. The apg-77 has soem 190km. By the time the eurofighter see's the f-22, it will be dead. Lets not forget the Eurofighter still uses the AMERICAN aim-120c. The meteor isnt out yet.

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i have to say that we can't always put those two in a scenario where they just come at each other head on, because in any kind of scenario it will be different. If there are AWACS, a few more typhooons and some supporting planes, one or two F-22 might be in trouble. Basically, I'm saying that if you want F-22 to be shot down, there is probably some scenario that would not work as well for F-22. For example, if typhoon is flying after a F-22, it would be able to make use of its forward dection range+other detectors. Whereas F-22 would be using its behind detection range, which is generally much smaller (1/2 of forward rane or even less). I'm not saying that the above would happen, but that typhoon would not get shot down every time by F-22. If the right tactics are applied, it might score some hits.

ger_mark said:

No
The Captor Radar has an official detection Range of 185km against superconic fighter jets and over 370km against awac's size planes

its able to scan and follow 20 targets simultaniousely and its able to fight them at the same time

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Tests in 1997 showed that the Captor had a range of 160km against fighter size targets. This is already difficult to believe, considering the Captor is a mechanically scanned PD radar.

The Eurofighter can only track 20 targets, not engage all 20 of them. That is impossible, as the most modern radars to date can only engage 6-8, and at most 10. Engaging 20 would be unreal because the eurofighter can only hold 6aim-120 at max.

No one is disowning the eurofighter, we are jsut saying it cannot compete with the f-22.

do you have a source about this test? 1997 is 9 years ago, the 1st eurofighter prototype just entered museum cause its not advanced enough compared to serial standard to give any usefull data anymore

1997 was not THAT long ago. some minor improvements could have been made to the Captor, but not enough to give it 25-35km increased range. It's still a mechnically scanned array radar. no matter what kinds of electronics upgrades you give it, it is still limited in potential. Similar to the the situation with the N0001E.

In the future, the Eruofighter will have mroe of an advantage with the AMSAR radar.

mough said:

Stealth is not magic, it's a science/technology,and it is fallable, yes the F22 is very difficult to detect, but not impossible, it's not like star trek where you can cloak a ship, it does not work like that, all stealth does, is to reduce the radar image return, not get rid of it compleatly....

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And i never said that. All i am saying is that in it's current guise F/A-22
stealth is very well thought out and well designed for almost all major threats. It indeed could be detected. But the ctach is detecting it at a distance where you can atleast do something about it.

although saying that, the F22 is clearly supirior to the Typhoon, by how much exactly, none of us know.

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And i exactly agree with that.

crazyinsane105 said:

Not necessarily. The F-22 does have TVC engines and the EF-2000 doesn't. When the EF-2000 gets TVC then it can probably be able to have a chance against the F-22.

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The F-22s TVC (as I am informed) is limited to usefulness only. It doesnt do circus tricks like the Su-30/35/37. However; the EF-2000, even without a TVC, performs remarkable manuverbility and that even at super sonic speed (So does F-22). The EF-2000, if some how manages to get into a WVR or dogfight with F-22 than it is not going to be all too easy for F-22 to shoot it down. Even though the superiority would stil be with F-22. But yes, the F-22 would still maintain an upper hand.

Firstly I just wanted to remind someone of his quote...........
Please do not post over nationalistic bullsh*t here. Nothing comes close to the F-22. To think a eurofighter is in the same class as an f-22 is a evident sighn of overnationalistic pride. not even any us China posters dare compare j-10 to the f-22, and you shouldnt either.
It seems that now everyone is comparing the EF/Typhoon to the F-22....my god even you!!!!...........Don't worry I'm just pulling your leg.....Anyway………
The reason eurofighter is not as stealthy as the F-22 is simply because its airframe is designed for manoeuvrability and payload first and stealth second. The F-22 is designed for stealth first and manoeuvrability and payload second. So especially at high speed the eurofighter is more manoeuvrable, but the F-22 is more stealthy. Which is going to be more useful killing its enemies?? Who knows what the future will bring and who knows if stealth is just a passing fab...they are already working on ways to detect it, these technologies are in the infancy, but in 10 years time who knows how capable they will be???
For example the EF uses the Pirate detection system (infra red) and has reported to have ranges of 80nm, but I guess these are ideal conditions, so you can probably half that...but it is still being designed and improved and it CAN detect stealth aircraft (you can not totally mask an aircrafts heat signature) and it is supposed to be able to track 200 (two hundred) targets in multiple target track, while when in single target track it has a better resolution that its radar. PIRATE is entirely passive in nature and thus impossible to detect.
Or what about the Czech ERA company’s VERA-S product, which tracks Stealth aircraft by detecting the radio-frequency radiation they emit, will this be improved and made small enough to be place on aircraft??
To the people who say the eurofighter is not stealthy, please you are so wrong it has had stealth built into it from day 1(for example the air intakes are s-shaped along their length, this ensures that the engine turbine blades are not within frontal view of the intake, which in turn lowers the frontal RCS-this is not simply an after thought to try and make it stealthy half way through the design), BUT like I said stealth was of secondary concern. I have also heard that during a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere(i.e. better than the F-117 and B2) and betters the F-22 at some angles(sorry I have no figures and am sure no one will have any correct ones to post on a open access source like this), and frankly if it not pointing at what it wants to kill, its probably going to die whether it is very stealthy or not. Anyway it does not have to kill the F-22 it will never have to fight it for real. It may have to fight something like the J-10 or any Russian fighter especially if they are sold for export in the future and I'm pretty sure the eurofight would win.
Below is a cut and paste to give you some figures from DERA….
DERA, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (now split into QinetiQ and DSTL). Unlike many previous theoretical operational capability studies, the Eurofighter analysis utilised a true simulation approach. This was achieved through a number of networked battle simulation computers, termed JOUST, each of which can be flown by human pilots.
This system was used to comprehensively evaluate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) performance of the Eurofighter and other aircraft against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents). The studies investigated all aspect best performances from the major systems on each aircraft; avionics, structure (including RCS data), engine performance (including fuel usage), defences and man-machine interfaces. In these tests the French Rafale utilised the Matra-BAe MICA air to air missile (which is the primary AA weapon of the French airforce) while the other aircraft used the Raytheon-Hughes AMRAAM.
These simulations concluded that Eurofighter has a win rating of 82% (100% equals always win, 0% equals always lose, 50% equals parity) against the target aircraft. A more typical way to present this data is as a combat exchange ratio, for the Typhoon this equals 4.5:1. In other words statistically one Eurofighter would be lost for every 4.5 Su-35 fighters shot down. This compares extremely favourably to the other aircraft (see also the BVR Combat Rating table); F-16C Falcon (0.3:1), F-15C Eagle (0.8:1), F-18C Hornet (0.3:1), F-18+ (0.4:1, NB this is not the current F-18E/F which is apparently a downgraded version of the F-18+ used in the studies) and Dassault Rafale (1:1).



You also need to remember that each countries Eurofighters are different, the UK’s are more expensive and have full DASS including laser detector and towed decoys, so it is hard to compare "the" eurofighter because it is different. Also the tranch 3 eurofighter will probably have VT although I have heard it may only be 2D initially. It will also have a full 360 degrees defensive and offensive packages.....who needs the Cobra when you can just turn you head to fire the missile???

Anyway that’s enough for today, I’m done.

I'd say Pakistan would be best off with J-10 and not getting anything from Europe. J-10 has a very similar design to Eurofighter so it wouldn't be too hard to give it the same capabilities. It's possible that the J-10C will achieve a Eurofighter-esque ability. Plus, J-10 is going to be a whole lot cheaper and so more can be bought.

There are some major problems with Eurofighter and purchasing it. Pakistan would be best off getting something from China as they would be more likely to get a sweet deal with them and have better training simply due to proximity. Pakistani pilots probably would get stuck with some less capable pilots for Eurofighter training. With China the Pakistanis will probably have a great deal more access to experienced pilots, training facilities, and flight data.