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Doombreed said:

Amazing what a bunch of satisfied twelve year olds can do, isn't it? No matter what happens. Hong Kong has reach an inflection point.

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That's because they're nothing more than spoiled brats and we "the people" have spoiled them rotten; on top of that, they got the wrong messages whispered into their ears.

Yet, when their likes in the West would've long ago found out what "at the business end of justice" means (in many cases, the business end of gun barrels), we've not the stomach to teach them the hard lesson of life, least to spank their wrists when it's really called for. But the longer this insurgency drags on, "the people" demands law and order gets louder than democracy, this will change.

For them, the primo uno thing is to find the courage to call this off before the society overwhelmingly wants them "to get the schnitzel beats out of 'em" (as "one certain gunny" once said so).

MwRYum said:

And let me tell you this: if the government issued a call for a civilian militia, with weapons issued (I don't mind if it's just a mosin nagant with just 5 rounds on a clip, all I need is bayonet) and full civil+criminal+legal indemnity status to its participants on operations to take back the streets, I can bet you for US$100 that folks in the thousands will sign up now, and so would I. We can only anger and vent our anger because we still have a life to lead and a keep to earn, thus not risking to ruin it all by breaking the law ourselves.

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Wow. I feel your frastration with the disruption in your life. I'm really sorry that you feel that way towards your fellow Hong Kongers. And I do hope what you're implying is just bluster.

But maybe the fault should be laid with Beijing rather than the young protesters? I'm not sure if you're in the adamantly Pro-Beijing camp, but most of the Hong Kongers I've spoken to feels that they're not being given a real choice. The choice is a long hard fight for democracy with a slim chance of winning and living in the shadows of Beijing. You guys always bring up the surveys and the signatures. But the choice shouldn't be Pro-OC or anti-OC. It should be Chinese style democracy or Real democracy. I dare say the results would be a lot different. The initial surge of popular support isn't an illusion. What the survey results really show is a people so scared of the repercussions, they are afraid to chose the hard option to get what they really wanted. If you can present a magic button to every Hong Konger that says "push this and there will be real democracy in Hong Kong, no questions asked". You're telling me that they wouldn't push it? The difference is the young protesters, precisly due to their young idealism, are not afraid to fight for what they believes in.

Doombreed said:

Wow. I feel your frastration with the disruption in your life. I'm really sorry that you feel that way towards your fellow Hong Kongers. And I do hope what you're implying is just bluster.

But maybe the fault should be laid with Beijing rather than the young protesters? I'm not sure if you're in the adamantly Pro-Beijing camp, but most of the Hong Kongers I've spoken to feels that they're not being given a real choice. The choice is a long hard fight for democracy with a slim chance of winning and living in the shadows of Beijing. You guys always bring up the surveys and the signatures. But the choice shouldn't be Pro-OC or anti-OC. It should be Chinese style democracy or Real democracy. I dare say the results would be a lot different. The initial surge of popular support isn't an illusion. What the survey results really show is a people so scared of the repercussions, they are afraid to chose the hard option to get what they really wanted. If you can present a magic button to every Hong Konger that says "push this and there will be real democracy in Hong Kong, no questions asked". You're telling me that they wouldn't push it? The difference is the young protesters, precisly due to their young idealism, are not afraid to fight for what they believes in.

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Actually the difference is between Beijing proposed democracy in 2017 with the potential for more reforms later on, versus immediate complete universal suffrage without any oversight from beijing at all (whcih seems to be their goal, although I can't be sure because they've been murky about it since the beginning)

In other words, they want to get to the dessert before finishing their vegetables. No patience. Sure, one could say they have a right to be distrustful of how 2017 plays out and they have a right to be distrustful of Beijing, but they're still jumping the gun without giving it even a shot. They've boxed themselves in a corner with next to no room for compromise.

And now after a few months of this, people like Mwyrum are just as justified to think of the protesters as a bunch of idealistic brats.
God knows, they didn't have any meaningful follow through planned out or coordinated. It's turned into a massive dogs breakfast. I could respect them a little more if their strategy were more concrete, but they seem to be just as directionless as the Occupy protests in the US a few years back.


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Lack of fear and bright idealism can be framed in equally positive and negative lights, depending on where the sun is shining.

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Popular support at one moment in time does not translate to popular support later on. I'd be interested to know if the initial surge in popular support has persisted (if there was an unbiased way to measure it), after two months of chronic disruption to the city.

Bltizo said:

Actually the difference is between Beijing proposed democracy in 2017 with the potential for more reforms later on, versus immediate complete universal suffrage without any oversight from beijing at all (whcih seems to be their goal, although I can't be sure because they've been murky about it since the beginning)

In other words, they want to get to the dessert before finishing their vegetables. No patience. Sure, one could say they have a right to be distrustful of how 2017 plays out and they have a right to be distrustful of Beijing, but they're still jumping the gun without giving it even a shot. They've boxed themselves in a corner with next to no room for compromise.

And now after a few months of this, people like Mwyrum are just as justified to think of the protesters as a bunch of idealistic brats.
God knows, they didn't have any meaningful follow through planned out or coordinated. It's turned into a massive dogs breakfast. I could respect them a little more if their strategy were more concrete, but they seem to be just as directionless as the Occupy protests in the US a few years back.


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Lack of fear and bright idealism can be framed in equally positive and negative lights, depending on where the sun is shining.

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Popular support at one moment in time does not translate to popular support later on. I'd be interested to know if the initial surge in popular support has persisted (if there was an unbiased way to measure it), after two months of chronic disruption to the city.

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Perhaps I can help to explain in the most layman of terms, for the uninitiated:
Essentially what the opposition wants is a blank cheque from Beijing, the only business Beijing has in all this are "sign on the dotted line", "cash out whatever amount written on it" and "shut the f--- up", or else they'd do what all spoilt children do. That pretty much sums up their demands really.

The absence of oversights by Beijing is primarily due to the fact that HK has no law against treason (probably the only place in the world, and in human history, to do so), it should've been covered under the proposed Article 23 but we all know it got shot down before even reached LegCo...Beijing has every reason to worry because the opposition camp is packed with proxies of Western Powers and those who made anti-Beijing their living for their entire political careers. The opposition fretted to trust the voters' rational judgements, but the events in the last 60 days proved that's not to be trusted either, as HK people for the first time ever, have a first hand experience of going after each other's throat over political views, not just amongst friends but blood relatives as well.

And by now, the insurgents have alienated all those who are "not them" and whenever their ringleaders fret about "representing the people" they really mean "they and they alone", and slip ever more towards anarchism everyday. If only you can read their comments (which is all in Chinese) you'd also feel the rage burning inside you, and wish nothing less than just roughen up those "ungrateful bastards"...

BTW, today's paper ran articles that the main anti-government politicians went almost begging those brats not to escalate things any further, as the public opinion has turned against them by now, any more escalation will further "harm the democratic cause" as they put it (ie. they all will pay in 2015 district council election and 2016 LegCo election). I'll post it later if I can find an English article.

The most disturbing developments accompanying the Hong Kong protesters' escalating violence are:

1) The protesters' focus on destruction and obstruction of infrastructure and everyday life while at the same time not offering any alternatives to handling existing everyday problems. Obvious conceit, hypocrisy, and attempted deceit in blaming the authorities for violence the protesters instigate.

2) The deluge of English language, mainly Western press, coverage that is blatantly skewed to slander the Hong Kong and China authorities, and omit or downplay the protesters' destructive actions and instigation of violence against the authorities. Especially since this is being done in Hong Kong where the facts are readily available and the press is as free as anywhere else on earth.

The first development is a reminder that these protesters just want attention even if through destructive actions on Hong Kong overall, have no constructive vision to offer, and do not accept the democracy they are supposedly fighting for by disregarding the vote of non-support by the general population of Hong Kong.

The second development is a clear indication of deliberate propaganda and/or ingrained bias so severe as to disregard readily available facts by the supposed free press, at least the Western English language ones.

Despite my best efforts I have been unable to find a single English language article that comes close to unbiased reporting on recent violence instigated by the protesters.

P.S. to offer something constructive for readers of this post, if you are interested in unbiased reporting on the Hong Kong protests you can watch the numerous news clips on the news websites of the two main Hong Kong television stations TVB and ATV, they contain ample footage of actions by the protesters and by the authorities. Even if you cannot read Chinese or understand Cantonese there are at least circumspect videos of most major developments which you can see for yourself.

TVB News:

ATV News:

cn_habs said:

If you tried grabbing a American/Canadian police officer's baton, you'd either get tasered, concussed or even shot dead. Those kids have obviously seen too few winters and live in fantasy land.

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To play the devil's advocate, is it confirmed that the pictured individual is indeed a police officer? There is a lot of misreporting on the matter, insufficient independent reporting, and enough reasons to spin an inaccurate photo to one's own agenda. Besides, his outfit suggests that he is an off duty officer (if he is one in the first place), which implies that harsh repercussions are not necessarily needed for the perpetrator unlike if he were on duty.

PanAsian said:

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ATV News:

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oops, I thought the protests were over ... now I watched

and without understanding a word -- I just noticed it got colder down there, 10 C now -- I noticed some interesting part after 01:30 where the cop with spectacles seemed to loose his temper, but was stopped by his colleagues

Benny Tai surrenders to the police.

SinoSoldier said:

To play the devil's advocate, is it confirmed that the pictured individual is indeed a police officer? There is a lot of misreporting on the matter, insufficient independent reporting, and enough reasons to spin an inaccurate photo to one's own agenda. Besides, his outfit suggests that he is an off duty officer (if he is one in the first place), which implies that harsh repercussions are not necessarily needed for the perpetrator unlike if he were on duty.

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Don't discount the lost of any police officer in this insurgency, should it happens...back in the right of abode dispute during 2001, the arson attack at the Immigration Department office caused the death of an Immigration officer turned the popular opinion against the right of abode seekers; that said, if a police officer died (no matter on duty or not) at the hands of insurgents, it'd give the government a lucky break they don't even dare to dream of. That is, if the first death in this insurgency is a police officer, there's next to impossible for the insurgent faction to spin doctor their way out of it.

AssassinsMace said:

Benny Tai surrenders to the police.

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Pfff, after 2 months of delay and 2 previous turn-arounds, that crook of a professor finally said he'll do that tomorrow...and in his statement is still packed to the brim with BS, absolving himself and insurgents all responsibilities!

To be honest, I'd rather he commit hara-kiri than surrender, because he and his dishonourable ilk have no hope of redemption through civil punishment.