Number of Ships PLAN must have to be supreme

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Sea Dog

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Roger604 said:
According to this article, the USN would lose a conflict with PLAN if it sends only 3 CVBG's. (I'll translate it if I have time later.)

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I wish you would translate it. There is absolutely no way that China's PLAN can defeat the USN. They just don't have the firepower or the experience. Plus I love the picture on the first page of that article showing PLAN ships firing ASM's in trail formation. That shows they don't have a very good grasp of maneuver warfare right there. They may as well just say, "sink us all"..."here we are guys". Sitting ducks.

Realistically, the USN could take care of PLAN with 2 carriers. Each carrier can deliver the equivalent to 900-1000 Tomahawks daily for 2 weeks straight with 24 hour sorties. That doesn't include other naval assets loaded for strike warfare (CG's, DDG's, SSN's, Ohio SSGN's, etc.). And it also doesn't include what the USAF can deliver, which is alot. Plus it doesn't take into account that the US can attack from the Yellow Sea, South China Sea, Philipine Sea, Sea of Japan, Just East of Taiwan, Central Asia, South Korea, Diego Garcia, and sortie heavy bombers from the US mainland. Roger, if you look at China's Order of battle, organizations, and force compositions......there is no way China has enough to stop this kind of onslaught.
 

isthvan

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MIGleader said:
To stay a safe distance away, U.s CSGs would most likely not be close enough to use their standards on ka-28s flying above the strait. In a near future situation, China definitly would deploy AWACs over the strait.

as for u.s subs, they cannot touch the ka-28. Once the u.s SSN is detected, the ka-28 can guide the kilos to the correct destination.

I used subs as example of multiple launching platforms for Harpoon, to make a point of how difficult and almost impossible job would ground based S-300 have to do… Now you are also constantly referring on PMU2 version but you have tendency to forget that majority of Chinese S-300s are PMU and PMU1versions….
When I was talking about opposition’s capable air defenses I was referring to Taiwanese SAMs, destroyers and frigates… So I still do not believe that would be many Ka-27s flying around…
And for Kilo, Yuan, Song vs. US SSN part of scenario I would put my money on improved LA class every time…
 

Nethappy

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Each carrier can deliver the equivalent to 900-1000 Tomahawks daily for 2 weeks straight with 24 hour sorties.

hmm, I never knew the USN carrier can launch Tomahawks and according to my knowledge non of the aircraft operation on the carrier can launch Tomahawks.
Only DDG and CG within the CVG can launch the tomahawks.

According to globalsecurity only the US only have about 2,000 BLOCK III and a possibley of up to a total buy of 2,200 missiles over a five-year cycle for the BLOCK 4. Nevertheless this exclude the one use in afgan and Iraq. So It really not possible for the USN CVG to deliver 1000 Tomahawks daily for 2 weeks straight with 24 hour sorties. Cost that would mean 14000 tomahawks and it more then the US Inventory.

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Why is everyone comparing the PLAN with the USN. I was the one who use the Harpoon as a comparison. Nevetheless I was using the JMSDF.
I would believe is better to compare PLAN with other Asian navy rather then the USN. We all know the USN can beat everyone. Every comparsion betweenthe PLAN and the USN become a nightmare.
 

bd popeye

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hmm, I never knew the USN carrier can launch Tomahawks and according to my knowledge non of the aircraft operation on the carrier can launch Tomahawks.
Only DDG and CG within the CVG can launch the tomahawks.

I'm pretty sure he meant JDAM's dropped fron Hornets.. Which the US has thousands of. Just how many Tomahawks the US has? I sure don't know.

Why so many JADAM's ?? They are cheap and work great in any weather.
 

Nethappy

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I'm pretty sure he meant JDAM's dropped fron Hornets.. Which the US has thousands of. Just how many Tomahawks the US has? I sure don't know.

Why so many JADAM's ?? They are cheap and work great in any weather.

JDAM are great weapon. But they have the max range of 10-20 km.
Which much usless it a stealth fighter like the F-35 or F-22. Otherwise the Shipborne and Land based air defence going be hell alot of trouble.
Yeah the USN can drop a hell alot of bomb. But it still going to rely on Harpoon, tomahawk and sub to take down most NAVY.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
isthvan said:
I used subs as example of multiple launching platforms for Harpoon, to make a point of how difficult and almost impossible job would ground based S-300 have to do… Now you are also constantly referring on PMU2 version but you have tendency to forget that majority of Chinese S-300s are PMU and PMU1versions….
When I was talking about opposition’s capable air defenses I was referring to Taiwanese SAMs, destroyers and frigates… So I still do not believe that would be many Ka-27s flying around…
And for Kilo, Yuan, Song vs. US SSN part of scenario I would put my money on improved LA class every time…

Chinese su-30mkks carrying kh-31s have a SPECIFIC mission of SEAD on taiwanese SAM batteries. The Taiwanese navy has virtuslly no air defence besides is kidds, which shall be eliminated by submarines and a barrage of styx.

China has 12 batteries of pmu2, likely deployed around taiwan strait

Improved LA isnt that imposing. if it were sea wolf or virginia, the PLAB might have a problem. But remeber, ka-28s will first detect the sea wolf, then guide yuans/kilos to the ship. LA is quiet, but yuan and kilo are even quieter when under 5 knots. 1-2 LA will not stand against 6-8 kilo/yuan
 

swimmerXC

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MIGleader said:
Improved LA isnt that imposing. if it were sea wolf or virginia, the PLAB might have a problem. But remeber, ka-28s will first detect the sea wolf, then guide yuans/kilos to the ship. LA is quiet, but yuan and kilo are even quieter when under 5 knots. 1-2 LA will not stand against 6-8 kilo/yuan

I wouldn't put too much faith into the Yuan/Kilo, especially in the hands of an un trained crew... how many years has the PLAN operated Yuan, 2-3 max. And the Kilo... let just say they messed up pretty bad by pratically destorying the batteries on it..

The USN has been using the LA for over 10 years... they are at sea constantly, what about the Yuan and Kilos? At max 1 month?

Oh about the Ka-28, the USN's got a huge CBG behind the LA, and they got plenty of ASW helos to track the Yuan/Kilo if they wanted too.

Another thing, how will the Ka-28 guide the Yuan/Kilo to the LA's... the Yuan/Kilo will have to surface or deploy a transmitter, and if it's above water, I'll bet the CBG will already see it.

I would bet my money on the USN anyday if it came down to LA's versus Yuan/Kilos
 

bd popeye

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Nethappy sez...
JDAM are great weapon. But they have the max range of 10-20 km.
Which much usless it a stealth fighter like the F-35 or F-22. Otherwise the Shipborne and Land based air defence going be hell alot of trouble.
Yeah the USN can drop a hell alot of bomb. But it still going to rely on Harpoon, tomahawk and sub to take down most NAVY.

Range has little to do with it. When dropped from a high flying B-52 or Hornet with the cover of US ECM..well they just don't miss.

True that the USN would rely on it's precision guided weapons in any strike. JDAM included.

Miggy..Swimmerxc is right on the money. And you know he is a backer of the PLA forces....

One of the things he points out is training..Those USN LA class subs are always at sea. USN ships in general spend as more time at sea in a three month period as many other nations ships do in an entire year. The crews are trained and know what they are doing. That's a fact.

Plus..numbers..the USN has 21 LA class home ported in the Pacific. Plus the SSGN USS Ohio and one Seawolf class. Not to mention 8 SSBN's...

Improved LA isnt that imposing. if it were sea wolf or virginia, the PLAB might have a problem. But remeber, ka-28s will first detect the sea wolf, then guide yuans/kilos to the ship. LA is quiet, but yuan and kilo are even quieter when under 5 knots. 1-2 LA will not stand against 6-8 kilo/yuan

Not imposing??:confused: Miggy..did you know that all USN subs are now fitted with a new sonar suite that gives them, according to the US Navy, a single A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) that has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined???

I've posted this before in the sub thread but here I go again.

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A-RCI is a sonar system upgrade installed on the USA's entire submarine fleet, including SSN-688 Los Angeles & SSN-688I Improved Los Angeles Class, SSN-21 Seawolf Class, SSN-744 Virginia Class, SSBN-726 Ohio Class nuclear missile boats, and the pending SSGN Tactical Trident special ops and strike subs.

By sharply upgrading ship sensor processing, it integrates and improves the boat's towed array, hull array and sphere array sonars, running more advanced algorithms and providing a fuller "picture" of the surrounding environment. Sometimes, it really is all about what you can do with it.

DID adds a bit more explanation of exactly what A-RCI entails and where its benefits were focused; then we'll go on to cover contracts placed under the A-RCI program in 2006.

The Acoustic - Rapid Commercial off-the-shelf Insertion (A-RCI) AN/BQQ-10(V) Sonar System was actually initiated as Engineering Change 1000 to the AN/BSY-1 Combat System on SSN-688I improved Los Angeles Class submarines. The concept doesn't replace the existing AN/BSY-1, AN/BQQ-5, and AN/BQQ-6 sensors - instead, it replaces central processors with modernized COTS personal computer technology and software installed in an open architecture. A-RCI efforts include interfaces to the legacy systems; signal processing enhancements; display enhancements; and incorporation of Government Furnished Information (GFI) algorithms.

According to GlobalSecurity.org, these improvements provide expanded capabilities, particularly in littoral waters, for covert intelligence collection and surveillance, and covert insertion and support of Special Forces. This is especially apropos for both the SSGN Tactical Trident special operations subs and the Virginia class, which also has special forces insertion capabilities. Expanded capabilities for anti-submarine warfare were focused on diesel-electric submarines, covert mining, and covert strike of targets ashore. Again, covery strile of targets ashore is also a prominent part of the SSGN and Virginia Class' missions.

Submarines with improved sensors, of course, like the new SSN-21 Seawolf and SSN-744 Virginia Class boats, will realize even greater benefits from having more computing power available in a more easily-upgradeable architecture.

According to the US Navy, a single A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined, and allows the development and use of complex algorithms previously beyond the reach of legacy processors. Specific software improvements included passive ranging, spatial vernier processing, full spectrum processing, dual towed array concurrent processing, low frequency active interference rejection, passive broadband, passive narrowband and passive detection and tracking processing, track management, on-board training, and port/starboard ambiguity resolution.

A-RCI's open architecture confers other advantages as well, notably the capacity for faster, more economical, and more frequent hardware and/or software upgrades. The program expanded to provide improvements that could be back-fit into all nuclear attack (SSN) and ballistic missile (SSBN) submarines, totaling over 60 ship sets. The system is now known formally as the AN/BQQ-10 (V) Sonar, and has gone through four phases.
 

isthvan

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MIGleader said:
Chinese su-30mkks carrying kh-31s have a SPECIFIC mission of SEAD on taiwanese SAM batteries. The Taiwanese navy has virtuslly no air defence besides is kidds, which shall be eliminated by submarines and a barrage of styx.

China has 12 batteries of pmu2, likely deployed around taiwan strait

Improved LA isnt that imposing. if it were sea wolf or virginia, the PLAB might have a problem. But remeber, ka-28s will first detect the sea wolf, then guide yuans/kilos to the ship. LA is quiet, but yuan and kilo are even quieter when under 5 knots. 1-2 LA will not stand against 6-8 kilo/yuan

Yes Chinese would conduct SEAD missions against Taiwanese air defenses, but I don’t think they would be completely destroyed… Taiwan also has FFG -7 frigates whit Standards, and better ASW systems then Chinese fleet…

Sorry for S-300 but jane´s states only PMU and PMU1 versions and Sinodefense states that China received four PMU and PMU1 regiments by 2004… I did not know that China received 12 batteries of pmu2 version…
But that’s not change my opinion about possible use of ground based SAMs for fleet defenses…

As for Yuan’s and Kilos I still believe that 2-3 improved LA SSN can take them out…
As swimmerXC and Popeye seed LA have better trained crews, better sonar’s and years of experience in playing games with Russian subs…
 
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MIGleader

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I wouldn't put too much faith into the Yuan/Kilo, especially in the hands of an un trained crew... how many years has the PLAN operated Yuan, 2-3 max. And the Kilo... let just say they messed up pretty bad by pratically destorying the batteries on it..

The USN has been using the LA for over 10 years... they are at sea constantly, what about the Yuan and Kilos? At max 1 month?

We dont know how much kilo crews train, so i wont make any statements on it yet. The battery incident happened when china first recieved her first kilos, about 10 years ago. I dont believe this kind of thing will be an issue again.



Oh about the Ka-28, the USN's got a huge CBG behind the LA, and they got plenty of ASW helos to track the Yuan/Kilo if they wanted too.

Another thing, how will the Ka-28 guide the Yuan/Kilo to the LA's... the Yuan/Kilo will have to surface or deploy a transmitter, and if it's above water, I'll bet the CBG will already see it.

Just as taiwanese SAMs can shoot down PLAN helos, chiense SAMs can shoot down u.s ASW helos. Absolutely essential for Chiense sucess is an incredible strong fighter umbrella. At least 50 flankers must be availabe, with 25 flying at a time over the straight. Two whole regiments, with possibly a third in reserve. This along with coastal SAMs will signifigantly reduce any threat from a CBG.

I would bet my money on the USN anyday if it came down to LA's versus Yuan/Kilos
I wouldnt, but thats just my opinion. Unlike skyhawk2005, i will accept the proffesional opinions of Popeye and istvan as truth, and debate this no longer. :china:
 
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