Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

@gollevainen:
read some of my previous posts in this thread about the splendid Atago class DDG's and you will see that my words described the highest respect for japanese engineers and soldiers.

Of course Japan is superior over China in some militarily relevant fields of tech like the design of certain surface combattants like DDG's but China has closed the gap significantly (type 052B/C, type 054A) in recent years and although japanese SSK's are very capable vessels chinese progress in the design of nuclear subs is steadily expanding China's tech excellency in a field where Japan currently and in the near future does simply not compete by political default.
(Although naval tech seen in global comparison between Japan and China is the foremost sector where China has still much to learn from Japan!:coffee: )

Regarding the ZTZ 99 and the PLZ05:
As myself and some other members already know you seem to assume that the PLA employed some kind of chinese Mr. Potemkine as chief engineer for the ZTZ 99 project but even if this tank is so bad as your analysis suggests it would be premature judging the japanese Type 90 a superior warmachine. Several german and british tank experts have described the Type 90 as ´the most expensive failure in tank history´ and the ´worst tank available for the buck´; well but perhaps they are only pushing an export agenda for their Leopard's and Challenger's. (quotes from british and german miltech magazines)

As for the PLZ05: the PLA is currently in introduction phase of this ´monster´ and we will have to wait some time for credible reports about the real capabilities of this mighty gun (may be equivalent to PzH 2000) but we will have to wait even longer for a comparable SPA developed by Japan to emerge (a development project seems to be active but they have not reached prototype stage yet).

LOL.. Goll ,you are talking like PLAN has no submarine to threaten Japan navy? And you are assuming detecting submarine is as simple as ABC.. Even the most modern ASW has problem tracking an normal electric sub. PLAN has the largest fleet of Submarine in North East sea. More than half are new and modern sub..Even those obsolete sub can be handy comes to mining and act as bait to lure enenmy sub to disclose their position.

Click to expand...

Yeas, they are good benefit for PLAN coastal defences and sea denial....But as for escorting and protecting commercial shipping...Do you actually know anything about martime warfare?

Sinking the entire PLAN in its basin? Hahaha... Are you day dreaming? What kind of massive offensive weapon Japan navy has that can sink the entire PLAN in its basin?

Click to expand...

With torbedoes and sub-harpoons. The weapons are irrelevant as Japan and China has both have weaponry that can destroy each others ships. The issue is in the platforms that deliver the weapons and how well they are protected and what are the either once capacity to seek and locate targets.
And PLANs most serious defiencies are that its ASW capacity is in the level early 70's at the best. But it completely lacs modern VDS and oceanic sonar suites. Its best suite is still French DUPV-23 from the mid sixties level....

It has really no change to figth against Japanese submarine force...

. And those yr so call comparable latest Japan destroyer is all build with the help of Uncle Sam. So that is yr so call comparable?

Click to expand...

And as sinking, it most come as great relief to the PLAN captain that those bloody nips ships were made by US assistance?? Get real...
Weapon and platform capacities are what counts, not the orgins of it. If PLAN would have given help they migth be better....For example chinese currently chinenese are managing to produce only either enlarged variation of Soviet imidiate post-war pr.41 class hull with antique preassure-fire steam plant (wich japanese mastered in the early 40s) or severly underpowered gas-turbine combatants (which japanese mastered in the 60s....except they werent underpowerd )

Hi all, I am new here, but have been reading and visiting here for the past 3 years, and have had a interest in things to do with PLA since at a very young age when I was living in Beijing. Now after reading Goll's post, I felt that I need to write something. JAP navy has 16 modern subs, and about 6-7 older ones in reserve. Only the newest JAP subs have AIP. Now look at China, 12 Kilo ( 4 older, 8 almost new) about 12-14 Song class, and 2 Yuan class. We do not know any of the them have AIP or not, and I am not even counting the modernized Ming class ( about 20 ). As anyone can see, the PLAN sub fleet is at least as good as the JAP navy's. I did not count the Chinese 091, 092, 093 ( maybe new 094) in as part of this comparsion. On surface ships, Jap navy is building some very fine destoyers, but with heavy U.S tech transfer, and with no independent C3I of their own, if the USN provid no surpport, JAp navy can not fight alone. Also if we look at the speed of naval ship building, we see China is buliding first rated ships much faster than the JAP Navy. As for the artillery capabilities of the PLA army, anyone think it is no good should read up more on this topic and I think he ( she ) will change their mind.

And bit for Oboe....

yeas in long term (and assuming the next chinese nuclear sub generation is a succes) PLAN will overcome Japanese, but thats still a long road. PLAN as now is in similar level (and if out clude the 052C and 054A) in relative and unfortuanetly directly as well....as the JMSDF was in the mid 60's....both just commisioned their first AAW destroyer classes and are seeking to incorporate the shipboard aviation capacity into next level....But Despite all the steps PLAN takes (and hats of to them by finally taking them) One cannot ignore the obsolence of its bulk forces in both tactical concept and by lack of crucial weaponry such as the mentioned ASW.

And as for the new guy just popped in (welcome and ect...) Chinese have good subs yeas, but the main role for subs are against enemy shipping and surface ships, and where as JMSF is one of the best in the world in field of ASW, PLAN in otherhand is clearly the worst of what comes to the major players.

And if we go on for tanks (in naval forum.....) I know my stance over ZTZ99, and I still believe its with a main gun of Russian ancestors, but the reality in that tank is that it still includes the carousel autoloader that is the main reason why T-72 is also declared as disaster...not just by some analyzist but a actual combat experience....
And what comes from PLZ-05 a nice thing it is, But hardly I would call it PZH2000 comparative...and even if it is, that weapon mostly rasises grin to my face as a finnish artillery man, but that would be too long story to tell....Lets just say that Artillery is 20% about the hard-iron in the fireposition and 80% about the guys in the battery and Battalion HQ, survey and fire directing....And in those important fields, PLA doesent really shine to my eye...

But If you want to continue the talk about Japanese army and chinese army, I suggest we find another arena for it....

Gollevainen said:

Yeas, they are good benefit for PLAN coastal defences and sea denial....But as for escorting and protecting commercial shipping...Do you actually know anything about martime warfare?

Click to expand...

I know you are a foot soldier,never know you can be good in marine? PLAN sub good only for coastal defences? LOL. Another joke that delights my day. Even what you assume is correct,is North Sea as big as Pacific Ocean that PLAN sub has no way to reach? PLAN sub has constantly being very active from very far away from its shore as far as Guam(Han cases) and shadowing US fleet in open sea far away from North Sea(Song sub incident). Not to mention many never reported and undetected incident to prove PLAN is more than a Coastal defence force...

Gollevainen said:

With torbedoes and sub-harpoons. The weapons are irrelevant as Japan and China has both have weaponry that can destroy each others ships.

Click to expand...

Haha.. This joke is better! OK, i think 20 inch gun can do of sinking both entire side of navy.

A missile with longer range ,bigger warhead can ensure yr hidden location safe and keeps u away from enemy sensor detection and range. All these PLAN clearly surpass Japan Sub.

Gollevainen said:

And as sinking, it most come as great relief to the PLAN captain that those bloody nips ships were made by US assistance?? Get real...
Weapon and platform capacities are what counts, not the orgins of it. If PLAN would have given help they migth be better....For example chinese currently chinenese are managing to produce only either enlarged variation of Soviet imidiate post-war pr.41 class hull with antique preassure-fire steam plant (wich japanese mastered in the early 40s) or severly underpowered gas-turbine combatants (which japanese mastered in the 60s....except they werent underpowerd )

Click to expand...

I can see,yr data are very outdated. News in 2000 to 2007 is very different . China accelerate at such frightful pace that any info abt it in a day,outdated the next day.....

I know you are a foot soldier,never know you can be good in marine? PLAN sub good only for coastal defences? LOL. Another joke that delights my day. Even what you assume is correct,is North Sea as big as Pacific Ocean that PLAN sub has no way to reach? PLAN sub has constantly being very active from very far away from its shore as far as Guam(Han cases) and shadowing US fleet in open sea far away from North Sea(Song sub incident). Not to mention many never reported and undetected incident to prove PLAN is more than a Coastal defence force...

Click to expand...

And what did I particularry ask you? How can you protect your commercial shipping with submarines? And this is what I get....
Chinese (and almoust everyone elses as well) subs can travel huge distances but submarines by their tactical application are more of defencive nature. Only with real SSN force you can patrol globally and process real saturate missiles attacks against stragetic components of the enemy fleet (execpt china doesent have that capacity)
But they arent platforms to escort and protect convoys and defend the fleet from Air and Surface attacks.

Haha.. This joke is better! OK, i think 20 inch gun can do of sinking both entire side of navy.

A missile with longer range ,bigger warhead can ensure yr hidden location safe and keeps u away from enemy sensor detection and range. All these PLAN clearly surpass Japan Sub.

Click to expand...

Boy... I always wondered how long it would take when the "superior range of Yj-83" comes to play
But the issue is that PLAN has almoust no means to detect and attac japanese subs where as the JMSDF has....SSMs arent mented to figth against SSMs and submarines, ASW weaponry, packed with sopisthicated ASW sensors are the ones with you figth against enemy subs....You do understand that, do you?

I can see,yr data are very outdated. News in 2000 to 2007 is very different . China accelerate at such frightful pace that any info abt it in a day,outdated the next day.....

Click to expand...

In 2000 to 2007 what has PLAN done in Destroyer production ....hmmm...They begun with two types of ships from the same hull that encorporated underpowered GODAG suite and after it proven out to be as unsucsesfull as one migth expect, they returned to the antique Preassure fired steam plant ships.....and eventually purchased similar odd configuration ships from Russia...
The facts are there, just open your eyes...and expecially, take out those red color spectacles.

Gollevainen said:

And what did I particularry ask you? How can you protect your commercial shipping with submarines? And this is what I get....
Chinese (and almoust everyone elses as well) subs can travel huge distances but submarines by their tactical application are more of defencive nature. Only with real SSN force you can patrol globally and process real saturate missiles attacks against stragetic components of the enemy fleet (execpt china doesent have that capacity)
But they arent platforms to escort and protect convoys and defend the fleet from Air and Surface attacks.

Click to expand...

Why must China protect its commericial ship when u are giving me a scenario of trying to wipe out each other fleet(PLAN VS JMSDF)? Hunting for enemy fleet is its main purpose. SSN is irelevant for NOrth Sea conflict as the distance cap is not too big. JMSDF sub fleet is not enough to carry out protect,defence and attack. 16 subs of JMSDF is not going to do that job. 12 to protect yr fleet. 12 to for attack and 12 as bait to ure enemy of their location. Clearly only PLAN has that enough number to carry out the task.

Gollevainen said:

Boy... I always wondered how long it would take when the "superior range of Yj-83" comes to play
But the issue is that PLAN has almoust no means to detect and attac japanese subs where as the JMSDF has....SSMs arent mented to figth against SSMs and submarines, ASW weaponry, packed with sopisthicated ASW sensors are the ones with you figth against enemy subs....You do understand that, do you?.

Click to expand...

See! Yr knowleadge sucks,boy... Yr always have outdated news. What the weapon I trying to tell u is Klub and not YJ-83... So far only YJ-82 is reported to be fitted in subs. Why mention a harpoon equavaleint where PLAN has far superior one? Both in terms of range and payload for a PLAN sub? PLAN has 12 kilo,all capable of Klub.... Harpoon ,no no..no way to match!

In reall conflict, 100 to each task would be figure I would call suffiecient....but the issue still is that with good submarine force you cannot conduct all aspects of martime warfare and commercial shipping is vital to China as it is to any other nation. In any conflict the locigal possiple way to act is to exploit your enemies weakness and as ASW in PLAN is what it is, I wouldnt wonder if all JMSDF would be consentrated to attack China shipping becouse the huge gap in PLAN capacities can couse serious strategical harm to whole chinese economy...

See! Yr knowleadge sucks,boy... Yr always have outdated news. What the weapon I trying to tell u is Klub and not YJ-83... So far only YJ-82 is reported to be fitted in subs. Why mention a harpoon equavaleint where PLAN has far superior one? Both in terms of range and payload for a PLAN sub? PLAN has 12 kilo,all capable of Klub.... Harpoon ,no no..no way to match!

Click to expand...

It was an ironic methaphore!!!! (we seriously need a emocotion expressing the banging of ones head against brickwall)

And Despite PLAN enjoys the fruits of Russian experty in leathal SSMs, do they protect PLAN fleet from Harpoons? Do you fire Clubs against the oncoming Harpoons?? No. The threath of JMSDF SSMs doesent disappear by acusting better SSMs of your own.

Gollevainen said:

In reall conflict, 100 to each task would be figure I would call suffiecient....but the issue still is that with good submarine force you cannot conduct all aspects of martime warfare and commercial shipping is vital to China as it is to any other nation. In any conflict the locigal possiple way to act is to exploit your enemies weakness and as ASW in PLAN is what it is, I wouldnt wonder if all JMSDF would be consentrated to attack China shipping becouse the huge gap in PLAN capacities can couse serious strategical harm to whole chinese economy...



It was an ironic methaphore!!!! (we seriously need a emocotion expressing the banging of ones head against brickwall)

And Despite PLAN enjoys the fruits of Russian experty in leathal SSMs, do they protect PLAN fleet from Harpoons? Do you fire Clubs against the oncoming Harpoons?? No. The threath of JMSDF SSMs doesent disappear by acusting better SSMs of your own.

Click to expand...

Type 630 CWIS...Chaff. ECM...Do I think to mention more?

Better SSM definitely plays an important role in keeping yr warship better distance away and further away from enemy sensor. Higher hit rate and greater damage!

Yeas....was it so hard to figure it out?
Keep it in mind, next time you go ranting over "PLAN supermacy"...gives lot better image when you actually appears to have any clue of what you are saying