Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

Schumacher said:

I didn't say foreign tech workers are the foundation of the US defence sector.

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Well, actually, what you said in the post I was responding to was this:

These include foreign students, workers and those who came & became US citizen. Despite Sea Dog's attempt again to minimize any form of foreign contributions, I think we can safely say they make non-insignificant & disproportionately high contribution to the US research sector.
These are the foundation of the massive US military infrastructure

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I took that to mean that the foreign students and workers (some who become US citizens) are the foundation, and I disagree with that. If you meant something else, then fine, alles gute.

Schumacher said:

What I said was, the vast network of non-defence labs, from universities and various commercial entities in which foreign tech workers do play NON-INSIGNIFICANT roles, form one of the foundations of the US military.

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Those labs do add to the military sector, but most of what is coming to the military sector is coming from the specific labs set up for that purpose...Sandia, etc. There, the foreign role is vastly reduced, but no completely...and those who are there are talented and do play a role. But in comparison to the others, it is not a large role. Whether the roles are significant or not depends on the specific contribution to the specific programs which is going to be classified at that point.

Schumacher said:

Perhaps u may want to argue the non-defence research sectors are not nearly as significant as the top-secret pure defence labs.

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The military labs play the most significant role. The other scholastic labs add to that.

Schumacher said:

These entities enjoyed far more research freedom, & freedom to employ foreign talents, & fundings from government & the market. This was something USSR had no hope of achieving.
In fact, if China, Japan & Europe are to have any hope of overtaking US in the defence area, let alone overall tech, they need to be more accomodating to free flow of foreign human resource like the US.

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I agree on this point in any case. IMHO, the USSR lost because it was a closed society and principally could not generate the capitol and wealth to fund the types of research and development necessary to keep pace with the US. This had to do with avenues of research due both to freedom and to capitol.

Anyhow, no offense intended, just sharing with you my own experiences having worked in the industry for a number of years.

Jeff Head said:

.....

"These include foreign students, workers and those who came & became US citizen. Despite Sea Dog's attempt again to minimize any form of foreign contributions, I think we can safely say they make non-insignificant & disproportionately high contribution to the US research sector.
These are the foundation of the massive US military infrastructure"
I took that to mean that the foreign students and workers (some who become US citizens) are the foundation, and I disagree with that. If you meant something else, then fine, alles gute.

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I see where the confusion is. THESE in 'These are the foundation.....' refers to the US non-defence sector in which foreign tech workers do work.

Jeff Head said:

I agree on this point in any case. IMHO, the USSR lost because it was a closed society and principally could not generate the capitol and wealth to fund the types of research and development necessary to keep pace with the US. This had to do with avenues of research due both to freedom and to capitol.

Anyhow, no offense intended, just sharing with you my own experiences having worked in the industry for a number of years.

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Yes, we all agree foreigners do not contribute much if at all in direct defence research. Looks like the disagreement is the significance of the non-defence research sectors to the military and that in turn leads to the disagreement on the significance of foreigners in the non-defence sectors.
That's ok. I can see it's far from easy to put any hard numbers on the 'significance'.

DennisDaMenace said:

All of the latest AC, ships and subs are all designed with computers (CAD). Western nations have an advantage in this field. You can always do a bit of snooping or maybe get an export version from a country that will play both sides, but you will always be one step behind, just an observation.
Of course, if you are only one step behind if you can field enough numbers, then you may still win. That seems to have been the Soviets PLAN.
OOPPS- I think I made a bad joke, or maybe a valid point.

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China will not be always one step behind. Currently, more and more people that are educated in the west are going back to china because of the increasing oppertunities in china and decreasing oppertunities in the U.S. These people will bring maybe not the physical technologies but the concepts that created western technologies. These people, with the help of existing chinese personnels, will help china create a counter measure or a more advanced version of technologies that exist in the west. However, I do not believe that this will happen for at least another 10-20 years.

Wat it means to PLAN? Let me tell u? The next generation Japanese destroyers means a new target dull for the PLAN to practise on. Blow their ships out the Sea. And they have no idea wat hit them.

red fox said:

Wat it means to PLAN? Let me tell u? The next generation Japanese destroyers means a new target dull for the PLAN to practise on. Blow their ships out the Sea. And they have no idea wat hit them.

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Oh joy - yet another newcomer with no real knowledge of military affairs.

And just how is the PLAN going to bypass these destroyers' missile defences? Is ESSM already obsolete?

Come On. Is Just Joke Is That A Problem.

red fox said:

Come On. Is Just Joke Is That A Problem.

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Apparently on this forum people don't use or like this kind of joke. So next time just talk something more professional first, then add a joke at the end of your comment. People may accept it easier than just a one line joke or comment. In fact, if read some more of the previous threads, you'll know want I mean.

Sorry

red fox, I'm sorry if I judged you too fast. But we do get too many "OMG, NO WAY YOU BEAT US - WE PWN YOU!!!!!" people coming here (regardless of their nationality). So please keep that in mind when commenting.

tphuang said:

I thought I'd make a comment on the stealth technology and such.

I remember reading a couple of days back on a Chinese forum from their resident expert on pla. He is a RAM/stealth expert for military applications. He basically said that even the company that lost out in the Chinese RAM competition has RAM technology that is more advanced than what was on F-117. The question is how would he know the performance of the F-117 RAM, but I can't answer that.

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Well this is not a supprise. To achieve a stealthy design, a tremendous amount of calculation is needed. In F117 time, that kind of powerful computer did not exist yet. B2 is still the most advanced in stealthy design, to do the calculation for B2 on the best coumputor in 70s, the calculation may take decades. Now China certainly has much better computor. Also as I remembered, the theory of stealthy design was invented by USSR scientists, but they didn't have that kind of calculation power to achieve it.