Aliph Ahmed
New Member
Beautifull pictures.
Cant wait to see it in PAF colors.
Cant wait to see it in PAF colors.
*New J-10 Thread*
- Thread starter Deino
- Start date
- Status
I'm not sure, but doesn't a white radome on missiles indicate live ones, at least in western AFs?
Not necessarily. As far as western or NATO is concerned the band applied around warhead is what is important. Blue = inert/training. yellow = Live warhead. Brown = live rocket motor.
It appears to me that those are training missiles on the J-10. The main body of the missile is blue. Generally live ammo is white with brown bands.
maglomanic
Junior Member
Good pictures!
One thing puts me off though... the number of fuel tanks. If these are operational birds operating in a certain area for division and not going cross country why do they need three external fuel tanks?
One thing puts me off though... the number of fuel tanks. If these are operational birds operating in a certain area for division and not going cross country why do they need three external fuel tanks?
Hi, I started this topic with that summary and after many posts … no an new attempt as once again the J-10 got my attention while I did some research for on ongoing project. During that I checked all the notes I collected over the year, additional to some latest information … tried to find out, when, which machine was discovered and so on !
Finally here’s an attempt to redraw the development as a timeline but I added some special notes or my own opinion, which still makes me curious or nervous ! Therefore I ask for Your comments and hopefully Your corrections ! ;D
DEVELOPMENT OF THE CHENGDU JIANJIJI-10 / J-10 “VIGOROUS DRAGON” MULTIROLE FIGHTER
• Initiated in 1984 as “Project 10” by the Chengdu aircraft corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute: proposed powerplant one Type-910 (WS-6) Turbofan-engine, later WP-15 (R-29 licence) … US engine under consideration and then the all new WS-10 (supposedly based on the CFM-56 core).
• between 1984 and 1993 there’s very few information available: some photos of models suggesting several airframe changes related to requirement changes …
• first J-10 proposal was rejected by the PLAAF at around 1992-1993.
• Chengdu went back on the drawing boards and a new design arose to meet the new PLAAF requirements for a larger and more powerful multirole fighter. A full-scale metal mock-up was completed of this new design in 1993 and finally accepted.
Engine mystery: When was decided to request / to consider the Russian AL-31FN ???
• 1994 – 1996: very first prototype no. 01 was built with a pre-series WS-10.
• High-speed taxing performed in early 1996 and the first prototype was set to fly later the same year (some say it actually did).
• Besides that AL-31FN negotiations + contract in 1996 and first engines were delivered during 1997, all the way to 2001.
• successful maiden flight on 23. March 1998 with the first prototype now called J-10A (after a 15-month delay performed by chief test pilot Lei Qiangjia in the afternoon at 2 p.m. o'clock lasting for 40 minutes)
Rumour-time: in late 1997 or 1998 the second flying J-10 no. 02 prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the test pilot. --> is related to a real mishap ...
• Actual near-fatal accident in the year 2000 – probably around June: a not further specified “prototype” had a complete blackout of all its systems because of the Laboratory 618's (?) navigation system failure. Test pilot Li Cunbao refused to abandon the plane to save his life as ordered and managed to restart the APU (?), which finally restarted the electronics and the engine. Since the plane was mentioned the “only” prototype, it would have been disastrous to the program if the plane had crashed. The pilot was awarded and highly decorated for his efforts.
Conclusion ??: These reports may indicate that there was only one flying prototype by the year 2000.
(hmmm ??? I don’t think so)
• No. 02 prototype presumably the static test airframe (similar to the FC-1-programme)
• Nevertheless it seems that the J-10 program continued as scheduled with two more prototypes on the production line or completed by the end of 1998 but none flying (1002 + 1003).
• 20. December 1999: After nearly one year of successful flight testing within the 3rd Flight Regiment at the Wenjiang a/p in Chengdu from the Chengdu Aircraft Corp (CAC) the prototype was transferred to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) in Xian Yanliang to start with its certification flights.
• By late 2000 Chengdu already had produced six prototypes which accumulated at least over 140 flying hours altogether
(01, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006).
• Until July 2002 two more improved prototypes (= maybe 1008 + 1009) were delivered.
(Missing 1007 maybe another static test airframe !?)
Still a mystery – that strange yellow prototype and powerplant:
• Latest interview information reveal or suggest that all early prototypes (the dark ones) were powered by the WS-10 …
(still unsure ... therefore early versions of the AL-31FN if not correct)
• Pictures of a strange yellow plane with an all yellow metal nose appear in late 2002 / early 2003: Strangely this particular plane appears to be equipped with an updated avionics suite as shown by RWR (later refitted to all other prototypes) with an AL-31FN installed.
1. Hypothesis: This is the rumoured missing prototype, which flew before the no. 01 … but why with RWR no other aircraft used so long ?
2. Hypothesis: This is an additional “new” prototype (maybe 1010) powered by the AL-31FN to validate the airframe changes for the later pre-production models !?!
Further flight and operational testing:
• beginning of 2002 (May): first deployment of 4 J-10A to the dessert Gobi to conduct the first stage of operational testing.
• first flight of the pre-production model (no. 1011 ??) that took place on 28. June 2002 (by that time CAC already had at least ten of these aircraft conducting various tests)
• March 2003: 10 J-10As were delivered to the 13th Operational Trials Regiment assigned to the FTTC in Cangzhou-Cangxian and can be distinguished by carrying grey four-digit numbers (101x).
• A photo released in 2003 shows a pair of J-10As in flight with numbers "1015" and "1016" indicating that at least 6 pre-serial J-10As were built so far (no. 1011 - 1016). Sadly of those machines we only have the numbers “1011” to “1016” on photograph but one can presume that further machines until no. “1019” may also exist.
(I’m still unsure about that as reports say only 6-7 of this block and no aircraft beyond 1016 is granted)
• The flight tests were successful concluded at the end of 2003 including missile fireings and first IFR-tests
• The J-10A received its certification on 15. December 2003. (One of the final test was a simulated intercept mission flown by test pilot Xu Yong against a live target that was hit and destroyed) Until then all machines together completed more than 1700 missions during their 5-year long test phase, which began with the first flight on March 23rd 1998 and was concluded until March 23rd, 2003.
• 30. March 2003: the J-10A was formally introduced into PLAAF-service ! During a ceremony two planes numbered “01” and “05” attended the and demonstrated some acrobatics to higher military officers. By then the report mentioned the planes having been slightly delayed by snow in the Beijing region, suggesting they were already stationed in Beijing MR, assigned to the FTTC.
Mystery: ???
• If production had started at about February 2003 with a rate of about 2 ac/month, would this fit to new aircraft with the numbers 01 – 10 or were these 10 the renumbered 101x-series machines ?? ???
• But then what’s about the aircraft numbered higher than 10 … are they additional serial machines
• Service started about March but certification was in December. Why ?? Is this delay of final certification for nine months from March to December is often related to some ongoing problems, maybe with fire control system ?? … close relation of the operational tests to the NRIET-institute may indicate that.
Conclusion:
Regardless what possibility is true it perfectly fits to the standard PLAAF procedure of having a minimum complement for a regiment of about 20 planes: As indicated by the service–inauguration report the first operational regiment was already stationed in Beijing MR during March 2003. So the 13. Operational Trials Regiment within the FTTC was equipped with about 20 planes made from these two batches and now numbered from “01” to “19”. All these planes wear the light grey and blue-grey two-tone camouflage pattern that look very similar to the pattern of an F-16 or Mirage 2000-5. Besides the duty of Air Defence for the capital these FTTC-planes have the mission to play "Blue Army" or “Blue Flag” Aggressors.
My opinion:
I currently think that there are only 6 pre-production models (1011 – 1016) followed by the first serial batch numbered of serial machines ! As I’m not sure about that single strange picture of no. 18, which looks very similar to a picture of a no. 08 I therefore tend to say that there are only another 9 machines of that first serial block !
The Twin-seater – J-10B:
• first flight of the two-seater J-10B “01” (later re-numbered no. “1021”) on December 26th 2003. In the meantime a further machine numbered “03” (also later renumbered no. “1023”) joined the certification flight. … what’s about number “1020” and “1022” ???? Both prototypes probably later joined the FTTC to complete the 13th Operational Trials Regiment and participate in operational trials and training.
• no. "02" airframe (= “1022”) maybe the static test airframe ??
• State certification was achieved in late 2005
• Beginning of 2007 the twin-sticker is now identified as the J-10S (maybe named after: "shuang" meaning twin or double)
Service deployment within regular PLAAF units:
• 2004: introduction of the J-10A into regular PLAAF regiments within the 44th Division / Yunnan province.
• during 2005: additional air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons tests PL-12 + unguided bombs
• contract with the Russian engine manufacture Lylka Saturn for another 100 engines signed in July 2005 to be delivered between October 2005 and July 2006.
• High production rate reportedly on two production lines: 3. Division under conversion and …
• 2006: Additional rumours say that a regiment of the 1. and 2. Division are in the process of conversion (initial reports of the delivery of 6 to 8 J-10A each so far suggestion a conversion of about 1 regiment per year)
Rumous again for the future:
2007 PLAAF 1st division in Chei-Feng (Sheng-yang MR, 2nd or 3rd regiment?)
2008 PLAAF 19th division in Zheng-Zhou (Ji-nan MR, 56th or 57th regiment?)
2009 PLAAF 6th division in Lin-Tao (Lan-Zhou MR, 16th, 18th, 139th regiment?)
Assessment – list of all prototypes, pre-production and early production machines:
1996 - 1998: 1 prototype 01 (+ 1 static airframe 02)
1998 - 2000: maybe no more flying prototypes (some quote 6 already built: 01 = 1001 renumbered, 1002 – 1006)
2000 - July 2002: at least a total of 9 prototypes (01, 1002 -1009) … 1007 still missing !!
End of first engine contract – unknown number
from mid 2002:
Production was authorised in 2002 and the first flight of the pre-production model (no. 1011 IMO) took place on June
2003:
Formation of the first regiment with the transfer of 10 machines in March 2003 to the 13th Operational Trials Regiment assigned to the FTTC (presumably 1011-1019 + 01-09).
2004:
Transfer of about least 20 aircraft for the first service regiment (44th Fighter Division) to Kunming-Wujiaba !
End of second engine contract – 54 engines
2005 - 2006:
End of third engine contract – 100 engines until late 2006 (??) … but what’s now ?? ???
Therefore my list of these machines !
CAC Prototypes - all planes confirmed in bolt !
01 later renumbered 001 or 1001
02 maybe static test
1002
1003
1004
1005 later renumbered AVIC 0165
1006
1007
1008
1009
preproduction Prototypes -- at least three have been confirmed and 6 spotted
1010 for my opinion the yellow one as the first with the final AL-31FN (if all earlier were powered by the WS-10 or early AL-31FN ???)
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017 -1019 ??
Two Seater prototypes, both confirmed
1021
1023
FTTC 13th Trials Regiment - Beijing MR
20 aircraft at least (20 aircraft is minimum for fighter regiment)
01, 02, 05, 08, have been spotted, 18 unsure (I would sayis a PS)
O.k. ... I know I'm a little obsessed, but anyway ... and THANKs a lot for Your help ! ;D
Cheers, Deino :china:
Finally here’s an attempt to redraw the development as a timeline but I added some special notes or my own opinion, which still makes me curious or nervous ! Therefore I ask for Your comments and hopefully Your corrections ! ;D
DEVELOPMENT OF THE CHENGDU JIANJIJI-10 / J-10 “VIGOROUS DRAGON” MULTIROLE FIGHTER
• Initiated in 1984 as “Project 10” by the Chengdu aircraft corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute: proposed powerplant one Type-910 (WS-6) Turbofan-engine, later WP-15 (R-29 licence) … US engine under consideration and then the all new WS-10 (supposedly based on the CFM-56 core).
• between 1984 and 1993 there’s very few information available: some photos of models suggesting several airframe changes related to requirement changes …
• first J-10 proposal was rejected by the PLAAF at around 1992-1993.
• Chengdu went back on the drawing boards and a new design arose to meet the new PLAAF requirements for a larger and more powerful multirole fighter. A full-scale metal mock-up was completed of this new design in 1993 and finally accepted.
Engine mystery: When was decided to request / to consider the Russian AL-31FN ???
• 1994 – 1996: very first prototype no. 01 was built with a pre-series WS-10.
• High-speed taxing performed in early 1996 and the first prototype was set to fly later the same year (some say it actually did).
• Besides that AL-31FN negotiations + contract in 1996 and first engines were delivered during 1997, all the way to 2001.
• successful maiden flight on 23. March 1998 with the first prototype now called J-10A (after a 15-month delay performed by chief test pilot Lei Qiangjia in the afternoon at 2 p.m. o'clock lasting for 40 minutes)
Rumour-time: in late 1997 or 1998 the second flying J-10 no. 02 prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the test pilot. --> is related to a real mishap ...
• Actual near-fatal accident in the year 2000 – probably around June: a not further specified “prototype” had a complete blackout of all its systems because of the Laboratory 618's (?) navigation system failure. Test pilot Li Cunbao refused to abandon the plane to save his life as ordered and managed to restart the APU (?), which finally restarted the electronics and the engine. Since the plane was mentioned the “only” prototype, it would have been disastrous to the program if the plane had crashed. The pilot was awarded and highly decorated for his efforts.
Conclusion ??: These reports may indicate that there was only one flying prototype by the year 2000.
(hmmm ??? I don’t think so)
• No. 02 prototype presumably the static test airframe (similar to the FC-1-programme)
• Nevertheless it seems that the J-10 program continued as scheduled with two more prototypes on the production line or completed by the end of 1998 but none flying (1002 + 1003).
• 20. December 1999: After nearly one year of successful flight testing within the 3rd Flight Regiment at the Wenjiang a/p in Chengdu from the Chengdu Aircraft Corp (CAC) the prototype was transferred to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) in Xian Yanliang to start with its certification flights.
• By late 2000 Chengdu already had produced six prototypes which accumulated at least over 140 flying hours altogether
(01, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006).
• Until July 2002 two more improved prototypes (= maybe 1008 + 1009) were delivered.
(Missing 1007 maybe another static test airframe !?)
Still a mystery – that strange yellow prototype and powerplant:
• Latest interview information reveal or suggest that all early prototypes (the dark ones) were powered by the WS-10 …
(still unsure ... therefore early versions of the AL-31FN if not correct)
• Pictures of a strange yellow plane with an all yellow metal nose appear in late 2002 / early 2003: Strangely this particular plane appears to be equipped with an updated avionics suite as shown by RWR (later refitted to all other prototypes) with an AL-31FN installed.
1. Hypothesis: This is the rumoured missing prototype, which flew before the no. 01 … but why with RWR no other aircraft used so long ?
2. Hypothesis: This is an additional “new” prototype (maybe 1010) powered by the AL-31FN to validate the airframe changes for the later pre-production models !?!
Further flight and operational testing:
• beginning of 2002 (May): first deployment of 4 J-10A to the dessert Gobi to conduct the first stage of operational testing.
• first flight of the pre-production model (no. 1011 ??) that took place on 28. June 2002 (by that time CAC already had at least ten of these aircraft conducting various tests)
• March 2003: 10 J-10As were delivered to the 13th Operational Trials Regiment assigned to the FTTC in Cangzhou-Cangxian and can be distinguished by carrying grey four-digit numbers (101x).
• A photo released in 2003 shows a pair of J-10As in flight with numbers "1015" and "1016" indicating that at least 6 pre-serial J-10As were built so far (no. 1011 - 1016). Sadly of those machines we only have the numbers “1011” to “1016” on photograph but one can presume that further machines until no. “1019” may also exist.
(I’m still unsure about that as reports say only 6-7 of this block and no aircraft beyond 1016 is granted)
• The flight tests were successful concluded at the end of 2003 including missile fireings and first IFR-tests
• The J-10A received its certification on 15. December 2003. (One of the final test was a simulated intercept mission flown by test pilot Xu Yong against a live target that was hit and destroyed) Until then all machines together completed more than 1700 missions during their 5-year long test phase, which began with the first flight on March 23rd 1998 and was concluded until March 23rd, 2003.
• 30. March 2003: the J-10A was formally introduced into PLAAF-service ! During a ceremony two planes numbered “01” and “05” attended the and demonstrated some acrobatics to higher military officers. By then the report mentioned the planes having been slightly delayed by snow in the Beijing region, suggesting they were already stationed in Beijing MR, assigned to the FTTC.
Mystery: ???
• If production had started at about February 2003 with a rate of about 2 ac/month, would this fit to new aircraft with the numbers 01 – 10 or were these 10 the renumbered 101x-series machines ?? ???
• But then what’s about the aircraft numbered higher than 10 … are they additional serial machines
• Service started about March but certification was in December. Why ?? Is this delay of final certification for nine months from March to December is often related to some ongoing problems, maybe with fire control system ?? … close relation of the operational tests to the NRIET-institute may indicate that.
Conclusion:
Regardless what possibility is true it perfectly fits to the standard PLAAF procedure of having a minimum complement for a regiment of about 20 planes: As indicated by the service–inauguration report the first operational regiment was already stationed in Beijing MR during March 2003. So the 13. Operational Trials Regiment within the FTTC was equipped with about 20 planes made from these two batches and now numbered from “01” to “19”. All these planes wear the light grey and blue-grey two-tone camouflage pattern that look very similar to the pattern of an F-16 or Mirage 2000-5. Besides the duty of Air Defence for the capital these FTTC-planes have the mission to play "Blue Army" or “Blue Flag” Aggressors.
My opinion:
I currently think that there are only 6 pre-production models (1011 – 1016) followed by the first serial batch numbered of serial machines ! As I’m not sure about that single strange picture of no. 18, which looks very similar to a picture of a no. 08 I therefore tend to say that there are only another 9 machines of that first serial block !
The Twin-seater – J-10B:
• first flight of the two-seater J-10B “01” (later re-numbered no. “1021”) on December 26th 2003. In the meantime a further machine numbered “03” (also later renumbered no. “1023”) joined the certification flight. … what’s about number “1020” and “1022” ???? Both prototypes probably later joined the FTTC to complete the 13th Operational Trials Regiment and participate in operational trials and training.
• no. "02" airframe (= “1022”) maybe the static test airframe ??
• State certification was achieved in late 2005
• Beginning of 2007 the twin-sticker is now identified as the J-10S (maybe named after: "shuang" meaning twin or double)
Service deployment within regular PLAAF units:
• 2004: introduction of the J-10A into regular PLAAF regiments within the 44th Division / Yunnan province.
• during 2005: additional air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons tests PL-12 + unguided bombs
• contract with the Russian engine manufacture Lylka Saturn for another 100 engines signed in July 2005 to be delivered between October 2005 and July 2006.
• High production rate reportedly on two production lines: 3. Division under conversion and …
• 2006: Additional rumours say that a regiment of the 1. and 2. Division are in the process of conversion (initial reports of the delivery of 6 to 8 J-10A each so far suggestion a conversion of about 1 regiment per year)
Rumous again for the future:
2007 PLAAF 1st division in Chei-Feng (Sheng-yang MR, 2nd or 3rd regiment?)
2008 PLAAF 19th division in Zheng-Zhou (Ji-nan MR, 56th or 57th regiment?)
2009 PLAAF 6th division in Lin-Tao (Lan-Zhou MR, 16th, 18th, 139th regiment?)
Assessment – list of all prototypes, pre-production and early production machines:
1996 - 1998: 1 prototype 01 (+ 1 static airframe 02)
1998 - 2000: maybe no more flying prototypes (some quote 6 already built: 01 = 1001 renumbered, 1002 – 1006)
2000 - July 2002: at least a total of 9 prototypes (01, 1002 -1009) … 1007 still missing !!
End of first engine contract – unknown number
from mid 2002:
Production was authorised in 2002 and the first flight of the pre-production model (no. 1011 IMO) took place on June
2003:
Formation of the first regiment with the transfer of 10 machines in March 2003 to the 13th Operational Trials Regiment assigned to the FTTC (presumably 1011-1019 + 01-09).
2004:
Transfer of about least 20 aircraft for the first service regiment (44th Fighter Division) to Kunming-Wujiaba !
End of second engine contract – 54 engines
2005 - 2006:
End of third engine contract – 100 engines until late 2006 (??) … but what’s now ?? ???
Therefore my list of these machines !
CAC Prototypes - all planes confirmed in bolt !
01 later renumbered 001 or 1001
02 maybe static test
1002
1003
1004
1005 later renumbered AVIC 0165
1006
1007
1008
1009
preproduction Prototypes -- at least three have been confirmed and 6 spotted
1010 for my opinion the yellow one as the first with the final AL-31FN (if all earlier were powered by the WS-10 or early AL-31FN ???)
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017 -1019 ??
Two Seater prototypes, both confirmed
1021
1023
FTTC 13th Trials Regiment - Beijing MR
20 aircraft at least (20 aircraft is minimum for fighter regiment)
01, 02, 05, 08, have been spotted, 18 unsure (I would sayis a PS)
O.k. ... I know I'm a little obsessed, but anyway ... and THANKs a lot for Your help ! ;D
Cheers, Deino :china:
Last edited by a moderator:
There is a pic in the CDF that shows---by directly counting the tails---that at least 18 blue and dark colored prototypes were made. This doesn't count 01 which stayed at the CFTC, and the yellow nosed prototype, which never had a final coat of paint.
The yellow nose prototype I believe could be the first plane with the AL-31FN.
1022 could be stress test model for the J-10S.
Of the first light blue planes, two were retained by Chengdu. (possibly 1013 and 1016)
Of the first planes that went to the FTTC, they were numbered 01 to 05. 02 and 05 were present in the J-10 acceptance ceremony in March 30, 2003. I don't think these planes are renumbered 101X series, which if renumbered, would take a higher number after the first serial batch.
Additional planes came to the FTTC for the 13th Trials Regiment. These were the first to sport the three door front gear arrangement.
Two of these planes were later transferred to the CFTC.
Presumably, at least two J-10S may have gone to the FTTC as well.
The yellow nose prototype I believe could be the first plane with the AL-31FN.
1022 could be stress test model for the J-10S.
Of the first light blue planes, two were retained by Chengdu. (possibly 1013 and 1016)
Of the first planes that went to the FTTC, they were numbered 01 to 05. 02 and 05 were present in the J-10 acceptance ceremony in March 30, 2003. I don't think these planes are renumbered 101X series, which if renumbered, would take a higher number after the first serial batch.
Additional planes came to the FTTC for the 13th Trials Regiment. These were the first to sport the three door front gear arrangement.
Two of these planes were later transferred to the CFTC.
Presumably, at least two J-10S may have gone to the FTTC as well.
Hello,this is my first time to post,and I come from china
I have to say that J-10 is not as goog as peoples think,and I am sure that all of yours have never seen J-10 by your eyes.
Obviously,J-10 can not be compared with f-16c/d,but the price of J-10 is also much lower than f-16c/d.And PLA will finally deploy 650 J-10 flighters,not 1200.
I have to say that J-10 is not as goog as peoples think,and I am sure that all of yours have never seen J-10 by your eyes.
Obviously,J-10 can not be compared with f-16c/d,but the price of J-10 is also much lower than f-16c/d.And PLA will finally deploy 650 J-10 flighters,not 1200.
Good evening.
Please support what you say with proof. Yes many of us do not come from China, but that does not mean we do not have expert in this forum. You do not just come in and say whether this thing is good or not. Give us something substantial to back up your claim.
This does not mean just the cost. I hope. And I really hope you are not saying something good or bad base on how expensive it is.
Thanks.
First,I have to say that my English is very poor.For some reason,I can not say much about J-10.
Second, I am a student for doctor degree from PLA Ordnance Engineering collage in shijiazhuang china.My major is control system and engineering. I have seen J-10 by my eyes,and did some works with my tutor on J-10A flighter. I do know some secret about J-10.
J-10 is not good enough to against F-16 C/D,but the price of J-10 is very very low.For some reason,the price of J-10 will not include the research fees,so PLA can get it in a very low price.the price of J-10A is no more than 70millions RMB which is equal no more than 10 million dollars,and the price of J-10B is just a bitter higher. The price of one f-22 = the price of 20 J-10.
The price is the only superiority of J-10 flighter.And this is also the superiority of communism.
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