New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

GM went all in in prismatic batteries. They could never make them either in enough numbers or at the expected cost. Tesla basically used laptop batteries which were available in huge numbers with well established manufacturing technology.

BYD disappointed the Brazilian market with the launch of the Seagull (Dolphin Mini).

BYD dealers were talking about a price of around 89k-99k BRL to revolutionize the market, but the launch price was 115k, above all expectations and not at all attractive compared to entry-level ICE cars.

Terrible marketing management.

quim said:

BYD disappointed the Brazilian market with the launch of the Seagull (Dolphin Mini).

BYD dealers were talking about a price of around 89k-99k BRL to revolutionize the market, but the launch price was 115k, above all expectations and not at all attractive compared to entry-level ICE cars.

Terrible marketing management.

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outside of Australia and SE Asia, BYD prices have typically been higher than necessary.

supersnoop said:

Volt was too early for it's time. Actually there is some indication that dealers are asking for Volt powertrain to be dusted off.

It's not that GM gave up on EV catchup, it's that their battery strategy has been an execution failure. In fact, they started selling the Cadillac Lyriq in China before the US. They are not able to scale the production of their "Ultium" platform. They have not been entirely clear what the issues are ("supplier/equipment issues"), but without this large scale, efficient production, their lineup has been abortive. Without getting the first gen out, they can't even start on the next gen (which should close the gap).

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Chinese car tastes are actually quite close to Americans. There is a distinct desire for larger cars compared to European models, for example the extended wheelbase Passat was designed for America and China, while Europe got the smaller model. China has a big appetite for 3-row vehicles. Basically the EV issue is mainly politics.

US government is creating many roadblocks to smooth business operations. These battery manufacturing rules were not even clear until a couple months ago which meant that many US carmakers were just sitting and watching while BYD is pushing out a million cars.

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Hopefully Biden bans all Chinese cars for some nonsense reason. That will give China an excuse to finally kill off GM and turn it into an America-only carmaker.

And also to warn companies not to bite the hand that feeds them. Remember GM CEO Mary Barra attacking Ford's use of CATL and fearmongering about China?

tphuang said:

frankly, if BYD can't outcompete this. It has real problems. This is just to get european automakers hooked on to Chinese technology

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Ideally in the future there will only be 2 types of cars: Chinese cars made by Chinese companies, and Chinese cars made by foreign companies. Give western population at least a semblance of choice, or risk being isolated like Japanese hydrogen cars.

sndef888 said:

Hopefully Biden bans all Chinese cars for some nonsense reason. That will give China an excuse to finally kill off GM and turn it into an America-only carmaker.

And also to warn companies not to bite the hand that feeds them. Remember GM CEO Mary Barra attacking Ford's use of CATL and fearmongering about China?

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More complex than that. Today, Toyota is as an American company as Japanese; Honda is as an American company as Japanese. It is a 3-decade political dance. But neither Toyota nor Honda had a better choice. Japan has no choice. However, China is a totally different story. BYD would never be allowed to turn into another Toyota or Honda. Neither Geely. Huawei is out of the picture. All other significant car companies are state-owned. So there is this insurmountable obstacle between Chinese car companies and US car market.

That being said, the best marketing strategy for BYD or Geely or SAIC is to explore the global auto market sans US. The example is Volkswagen, which diesel penalty was probably larger than all the money VW had ever made in the US before the case. I can guarantee you there are only two fates facing the Chinese car companies in the US markets: (1) becoming likes of Toyota or Honda; or (2) being fined like VW. If BYD etc. cannot see this, their leadership has a really big mental problem.

With regard to GM and Ford and 1/3 Stellantis, they all have fundamental issues in their own beings when trying to overcome their respective obstacles to the global EV evolution. Once again, China is re-defining the essence of EV on an almost yearly basis. Just a reminder: Tesla FSD is an USD 11000 option. If you price a Tesla Model 3 baseline with just FSD, you would be looking at a USD 60000 car, which is close to the AITO M9 pricing with Huawei intelligent driving package. We are not counting all other trim details in M9 that would make Model 3 like a Kia. In summary, it is becoming an eco-system issue rather than individual company issue when we are talking about US car companies catching up with Chinese EV companies. Along this line did I say a few times in the past in that: the game is over.

tphuang said:

Meloni was against BRI from the beginning. I don't see why it was a surprise that she left BRI.

As for US forcing Italy to do this and that. Well, if Italy doesn't want BYD to open a factory in their country, then BYD can just pick somewhere else. BYD is not locked into picking Italy. There is a process where many countries are chasing BYD investments and BYD picks where it will have additional factories.

Either way, wherever BYD goes in Europe, it will have a legal system to protect its investment. At worst case, govt reneges on certain details of the detail, BYD can just sell that investment and go somewhere else.

BYD cannot pick investment location purely based on who is friendlier to China. Wherever they go actually needs the local work force that can support a factory. Hungary worked because it already has a large automotive production base due to German automakers presence there

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I'd say you're being very optimistic about the 'protection' of 'legal systems'. We saw what happened with Huawei, tons of other Russian businesses. Destruction of pipelines being the more dramatic option, legally, the case and investigations have been closed . BYD's investment is peanuts vs the impact of pipelines on European economies. Americans have now called the entire Chinese EV industry as a . They will use all tools they can in the playbook to hinder it's expansion. They will imo try to firewall Anglo sphere, EU mainland and East Asian vassals.

phrozenflame said:

I'd say you're being very optimistic about the 'protection' of 'legal systems'. We saw what happened with Huawei, tons of other Russian businesses. Destruction of pipelines being the more dramatic option, legally, the case and investigations have been closed . BYD's investment is peanuts vs the impact of pipelines on European economies. Americans have now called the entire Chinese EV industry as a

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. They will use all tools they can in the playbook to hinder it's expansion. They will imo try to firewall Anglo sphere, EU mainland and East Asian vassals.

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Here are the basic facts.

1. China is the preeminent auto market in the entire world. What happens in China, that goes global. That is the reality when the China car market is the largest in the world, and most advanced now in EV.

2. China is the largest auto exporter in the world. These two topics, internal auto market, and exports, these are accelerating upwards.

3. So? What exactly does the United States intend to do? We know they are not dealing from a position of strength here on this topic of autos, being not the largest car market in the world or that advanced in EV except for just TELSA, who itself is deeply embedded into the Chinese auto supply chain.

4. It is kind of ass backwards to be honest, when it comes to Chinese EV coming to North America. There is not enough charging stations. That will not change anytime soon. There is no point in banning Chinese EV in American or Canada when the consumer still have concerns about charging stations.

5. It is the law that by 2035 most of Europe, some states in America, and in Canada, the ICE car will be outlawed from sale. Where are these EV cars will materialize from? Who knows.

horse said:

Here are the basic facts.

1. China is the preeminent auto market in the entire world. What happens in China, that goes global. That is the reality when the China car market is the largest in the world, and most advanced now in EV.

2. China is the largest auto exporter in the world. These two topics, internal auto market, and exports, these are accelerating upwards.

3. So? What exactly does the United States intend to do? We know they are not dealing from a position of strength here on this topic of autos, being not the largest car market in the world or that advanced in EV except for just TELSA, who itself is deeply embedded into the Chinese auto supply chain.

4. It is kind of ass backwards to be honest, when it comes to Chinese EV coming to North America. There is not enough charging stations. That will not change anytime soon. There is no point in banning Chinese EV in American or Canada when the consumer still have concerns about charging stations.

5. It is the law that by 2035 most of Europe, some states in America, and in Canada, the ICE car will be outlawed from sale. Where are these EV cars will materialize from? Who knows.

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The US will need the help of India, the new EV superpower, for countering Chinese EV.

phrozenflame said:

I'd say you're being very optimistic about the 'protection' of 'legal systems'. We saw what happened with Huawei, tons of other Russian businesses. Destruction of pipelines being the more dramatic option, legally, the case and investigations have been closed . BYD's investment is peanuts vs the impact of pipelines on European economies. Americans have now called the entire Chinese EV industry as a

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. They will use all tools they can in the playbook to hinder its expansion. They will imo try to firewall Anglo sphere, EU mainland and East Asian vassals.

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Wait, did huawei have one of its factories confiscated? If not, then why would byd factory be confiscated or shutdown?

America can say whatever it wants but the fact is there are more American and European investment in China than vice versa. The difference is pretty large. So if America or Europe just decides to block, tariff or confiscate Chinese automakers, Chinese govt can always retaliate. It will be the greatest day for byd if western automakers and supply chain cannot operate in China. Do you understand?

the level of paranoia on this forum is unbelievable. America somehow cannot be stopped and is all powerful and China is the weakest little nation ever created.

btw, I have not seen you post much on this thread on substantive auto related stuff. If your goal is to just weigh in on geopolitics, please feel free to stay away from this thread.