Miscellaneous News

Minm said:

This attitude is exactly the problem with Chinese foreign policy. All the countries that today have reasonably competent leadership are western allies. China can try to work with them, but it's very difficult to move them out of the American orbit.

There are however some countries that are less competent, partially because they haven't been part of American led globalization. You can't expect them to be perfect allies immediately. They need help. Just as America made post war western Europe, Korea and Japan wealthy by opening its markets to them, China should offer better market access and investment. Spreading belt and road over the entire world is just not very effective. It needs a more sustained effort, as China is trying to do in Pakistan now. But even with Pakistan, there is limited help with their political problems that are turning them into a failed state. Russia, Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar and many others need help and protection.

So yes, China should help others sort out their issues. That's how you turn a transactional relationship into true friendship. And only by building up allies can you expect them to be helpful when China might need help in a future conflict. Today it would be laughable to expect any of the sanctioned countries other than maybe Russia to provide significant help to China. But there could be so much more

Click to expand...

Bellum_Romanum said:

Totally agree with your assessments and observations on China's perplexing foreign policy approach even with its own supposed allies. Either Chinese leadership are GUN SHY, AFRAID TO MAKE THEIR HANDS DIRTY or NAIVE ON THE REALITIES OF THE WORLD in which they are surrounded with UNCERTAINTIES, UNPREDICTABILITY, AND WAR THAT CAN AND WILL ERUPT at her doorstep like it or not.

Somehow, in my ignorant and rather elementary views of China's foreign policy they are just not at all interested in offering any security details to would be countries. The relationships are rather transactional and not all deep or culturally encompassing that enables China's hard earned investment aren't washed away in one fell swoop through internal coup directed by the West, informational greyzone tactics ably applied by India. China plays defensively everywhere or at least perceived to be defensive and reactive in many if not most of its dealings. Take the case of Italy abruptly ending its BRI initiative with China, and the blatant theft of one of it's business with Perelli tires essentially neutering Chinese company into irrelevance. Am I supposed to believe that China was not aware that such a plan from the incoming and now Italian government were not foreseen? What's the point of those intelligence services that China employs and funds with giant budgets?

For all the criticisms I have of India, in my mind, they know how to fight back the information war rightly or wrongly. I just find some of the Chinese thinking and approach rather child like with the idiocy that if only they would work harder, and keep talking about win-win the western world will finally see the virtue of Chinese way. I understand it's a strawman argument am making but it's the impression I have made.

But, am obviously making my points from a far since I have not been to the country in a while. I am quite interested in the opinions of our members here to point out the errors of my perception and thinking with regards to China's foreign policy approach vis-à-vis ACTUAL ACTIVE INTERFERENCE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AFFAIRS.

Click to expand...

ZeEa5KPul said:

why do you think it's China's job to clean up the mess?

Click to expand...

Strangelove said:

CPC leadership isn't naive about the world, in fact its understanding is comprehensive, with very sharp intel, the way Wang Yi and now Qin Gang go around engaging and sealing deals indicate this.

So I would put it down to being gun shy and very risk adverse, and I speculate the leadership would want to wait until China strengths in tech & food self-sufficiencies are fully developed before we really swing our weight around. The next generation of leaders, those who grew up in the 80s and 90s, and experienced nothing but growth and wealth would be more aggressive, by which time we can well afford to meddle in other countries' affairs if they don't properly behave.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

This is the same logic that people used to support the Putin 4D chess master theory... Something governments can be wrong or make the wrong moves. Russia had all the information it needed on Ukraine and yet completely misread the situation, hell they're mis-reading their own politics, that's why the coup is even a thing.

From what I could tell, China didn't want the Ukraine war. They poured billions into Ukraine before the war, they knew that the geopolitical situation would be heightened after the War, that the West would unite and start rearming again, they would be upsetting their biggest customers, they would have to disengage from Russia or face sanctions. There's nothing to gain for China, even if Russia did take over Ukraine in 3 days. They allowed it anyway, when it's clear that Chinese support for Russia is the only thing that is keeping Russia going for so long. If China had issued an ultimatum, invade Ukraine and we stop trade with you, would Russia have invaded? Probably not. Or over the year long war, another ultimatum "we will stop trade and invade if you don't make peace" or something along those lines could have forced Russia into a ceasefire or peace deal, whether Putin like it or not. China and Russia are not equal partners, China needs to act like a superpower and actually throw it's weight around, not act like it's blameless.

Do you know why superpowers are superpowers? It's not just that they're powerful. It's that the world revolves around them, every war, every policy made by countries, trade deals, coups, everything is done or influenced with a superpower in mind. China is a superpower now. Even the tiniest thing that they do has massive ramifications around the globe, even China staying neutral and buying Russian oil and letting Russia destroying itself is partly China's fault when there's no way Putin would have carried out the invasion if China had been opposed to it, or when China could have easily forced Putin to negotiate a bad peace deal anytime she wanted.

Just look at NK. Do you really think China wants NK to be a failed state that stirs up tension with important trading partners in the region and refuses to developed and sucks up Chinese aid like a black hole? Is it some 40 year long 4D plan by China? No, of course they would rather NK be China's version of SK/Japan, wealthy, developed, able to trade more valuable goods and services and still acts like a Chinese vassal state. And yet even after decades, they fail to open NK up and actually enact polices to make NK more developed. And yes, this failed states shitting the bed is kinda China's fault when it's the main nation enabling them, NK won't exist with Chinese support, Russia won't have started or continued the failing war without China's support and China propping the economy up.

Again, just watch as China does nothing again as Russia just continues to degrade and degrade until you got another dozen nuclear armed rouge states all bordering China.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

This is the same logic that people used to support the Putin 4D chess master theory... Something governments can be wrong or make the wrong moves. Russia had all the information it needed on Ukraine and yet completely misread the situation, hell they're mis-reading their own politics, that's why the coup is even a thing.

From what I could tell, China didn't want the Ukraine war. They poured billions into Ukraine before the war, they knew that the geopolitical situation would be heightened after the War, that the West would unite and start rearming again, they would be upsetting their biggest customers, they would have to disengage from Russia or face sanctions. There's nothing to gain for China, even if Russia did take over Ukraine in 3 days. They allowed it anyway, when it's clear that Chinese support for Russia is the only thing that is keeping Russia going for so long. If China had issued an ultimatum, invade Ukraine and we stop trade with you, would Russia have invaded? Probably not. Or over the year long war, another ultimatum "we will stop trade and invade if you don't make peace" or something along those lines could have forced Russia into a ceasefire or peace deal, whether Putin like it or not. China and Russia are not equal partners, China needs to act like a superpower and actually throw it's weight around, not act like it's blameless.

Do you know why superpowers are superpowers? It's not just that they're powerful. It's that the world revolves around them, every war, every policy made by countries, trade deals, coups, everything is done or influenced with a superpower in mind. China is a superpower now. Even the tiniest thing that they do has massive ramifications around the globe, even China staying neutral and buying Russian oil and letting Russia destroying itself is partly China's fault when there's no way Putin would have carried out the invasion if China had been opposed to it, or when China could have easily forced Putin to negotiate a bad peace deal anytime she wanted.

Just look at NK. Do you really think China wants NK to be a failed state that stirs up tension with important trading partners in the region and refuses to developed and sucks up Chinese aid like a black hole? Is it some 40 year long 4D plan by China? No, of course they would rather NK be China's version of SK/Japan, wealthy, developed, able to trade more valuable goods and services and still acts like a Chinese vassal state. And yet even after decades, they fail to open NK up and actually enact polices to make NK more developed. And yes, this failed states shitting the bed is kinda China's fault when it's the main nation enabling them, NK won't exist with Chinese support, Russia won't have started or continued the failing war without China's support and China propping the economy up.

Again, just watch as China does nothing again as Russia just continues to degrade and degrade until you got another dozen nuclear armed rouge states all bordering China.

Click to expand...

Fedupwithlies said:

Sigh. China needs allies that aren't complete shit shows of countries.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

Explain NK. More or less totally dependent on China,

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

everyone would love it if they were became more developed

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

and stopped raising tensions with nuclear threats,

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

decades later and China has failed to influence their government enough to allow this tiny little country to open up to chinese money and investments.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

More likely answer, China just doesn't give a shit, or they would have bought NK to heel a long time ago.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

Explain NK. More or less totally dependent on China, everyone would love it if they were became more developed and stopped raising tensions with nuclear threats, decades later and China has failed to influence their government enough to allow this tiny little country to open up to chinese money and investments.

More likely answer, China just doesn't give a shit, or they would have bought NK to heel a long time ago.

Click to expand...