Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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Blitzo

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They do punish those who regret volunteering though. There have been a few cases reported where the young fellows could not take the boot camp training anymore and screamed quit. Once they were dishonorably discharged, they lost quite some social and economical benefits, such as not to be accepted by colleages for a few years, not to be employed in public services, much higher bar for bank loans, etc.

In other words, the conscription laws are still enforced in some way, except military drafting.

Given the draft system is what he was describing, my point is that the conscription system he described doesn't exist.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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Who cares if TB-2 is controlled by the West or Ukraine? If you are China, you need to cut off that communication regardless of who you are dealing with.
This is a major question actually because the best response to medium UAV is to strike their command center and shut a whole bunch off at once.

The reason is technical:

Typically these command centers are major RF emitters - they need a 2 way datalink that is high resolution enough to encode real time high resolution video and radar signals. As you understand, real time video and radar data is a major bandwidth hog. It is difficult to produce RF energy, they need a ton of electricity. The command centers are unlikely to be moving much because of that.

Otherwise, other was of shutting them down are not so good. they have less takeoff constraints than manned fixed-wing in terms of ammunition (some can even be loaded by hand) and runways (take off from roads and fueled by gasoline) which makes them difficult to shut down by hitting airbases. They don't cost that much (TB2 costs only $1 million) so your CAP time is even more worth it.

Russia likely already struck known command centers with anti-rad missiles. But the drones are still operational. One guess is that they escaped the eyes of Russian tactical aviation. Didn't happen in Syria though. So the more likely explanation is that they're being piloted by commands from the known E-8s circling in Poland, Romania and Hungary.

Evidence for my theory: most TB-2 strikes are in the west and north. None were in the East where the Ukrainian Army is getting encircled and eliminated with artillery.

Why is this important? Because apparently, it seems Russia is unable to jam the datalink. This means that if you're unable to jam the datalink, destroying enemy ground stations is insufficient to eliminate the UAV threat. They can still be controlled by foreign planes outside the zone of conflict that you can't shoot down without escalation.

TW is a bit different. TW is surrounded by international water. So yes, E-8s can circle east of TW in international waters puppeteering Taiwanese UAVs that survive. PLAAF can also send J-16s at them and they can figure out if they want to play the game of chicken.
 

optionsss

Junior Member
PGMs and loiter drones are the best bet for initial and sustained strike against Taiwan . We havn't seen what an actual industrial superpower fully committed to a war looks like, so I am just guessing. Given Taiwan's close proximity to China, and China's industrial capabilities. I think if China have decided military is the only option, it can relatively easily(2 to 3 years) stockpile 10000 short/medium range cruise missile and upto 100,000 AI programed suicide drones. PLA can start the war with saturation attacks in very large waves. There is no way to control the drones, the suicide drones will be used similar to the rolling artillery of WWI. PLA can send them out ahead of their naval landing force and air landing force and essentially kill anthing that shoots back. Essentially overwhelme Taiwan with multiple naval/air landing.

I never really thought taking Taiwan military would be very difficult for China, its what happens after that's the chanlledge.
 

Philister

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One thing that I noticed from Ukraine: UAVs are still running at low rates. This makes me more and more convinced that foreign intervention is already happening.

Here I focus on UAVs. UAVs still flying means 1 of 2 possibilities:

1. Russian army and air force is so incompetent that they did not strike obvious drone control centers blasting out tons of RF and situated in open areas away near airbases.

2. The drones are not being controlled from Ukrainian soil. The original control centers were taken out, true. But they're not being piloted from there.

I believe that the drones are likely being remote piloted from outside Ukraine. I even doubt Ukrainians are piloting their SAMs or doing more than just pressing a button, as Russian Air Force took out their radar on day 1. It is 100%
Those TB-2s UKR purchased don’t have satcom, I don’t think Russians had done it thoroughly ,maybe they deliberately avoided destroying the runway and those drones were not on the ground when the missiles came
 

Philister

Junior Member
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The reason is technical:

Typically these command centers are major RF emitters - they need a 2 way datalink that is high resolution enough to encode real time high resolution video and radar signals. As you understand, real time video and radar data is a major bandwidth hog. It is difficult to produce RF energy, they need a ton of electricity. The command centers are unlikely to be moving much because of that.

Otherwise, other was of shutting them down are not so good. they have less takeoff constraints than manned fixed-wing in terms of ammunition (some can even be loaded by hand) and runways (take off from roads and fueled by gasoline) which makes them difficult to shut down by hitting airbases. They don't cost that much (TB2 costs only $1 million) so your CAP time is even more worth it.

Russia likely already struck known command centers with anti-rad missiles. But the drones are still operational. One guess is that they escaped the eyes of Russian tactical aviation. Didn't happen in Syria though. So the more likely explanation is that they're being piloted by commands from the known E-8s circling in Poland, Romania and Hungary.

Evidence for my theory: most TB-2 strikes are in the west and north. None were in the East where the Ukrainian Army is getting encircled and eliminated with artillery.

Why is this important? Because apparently, it seems Russia is unable to jam the datalink. This means that if you're unable to jam the datalink, destroying enemy ground stations is insufficient to eliminate the UAV threat. They can still be controlled by foreign planes outside the zone of conflict that you can't shoot down without escalation.

TW is a bit different. TW is surrounded by international water. So yes, E-8s can circle east of TW in international waters puppeteering Taiwanese UAVs that survive. PLAAF can also send J-16s at them and they can figure out if they want to play the game of chicken.
First,Taiwan doesn’t have such drones, not yet
Second, if Taiwan ever purchased drones, it would be Tengyun/MQ-1/MQ-9, which are equipped with satcoms and Americans could just control them from the US/Japan/Guam, E-8s will be irrelevant anyway
 

T-U-P

The Punisher
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How long would it take for China to gather enough forces for an actual invasion? Russia took a few months and it was clearly being monitored. China must have some sort of contingency plan for a sudden change in status quo, right?
 

Philister

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I don't quite understand why this needs to be done at the same time. You can just send ballistic/cruise missiles over and whatever gets knocked out gets knocked out. Once that air defense is weakened, you can then come and take care of all the aircraft sitting in the hangar, the communication stations, the power stations, the cable companies and their backup generators. Whatever you can't knock out, you try to jam it by stationing 1 or 2 GX EW aircraft there at all times. And you station 1 ELINT aircraft there at all time to continue sniffing out all the outgoing communications.


There is no point for Taiwan just getting too many MANPADS and ATGMS. They need to replace the ones they have with the newest they can find. PLAAF will for sure send over a lot of UCAVs, J-6/7 drones and other assets to try to find these things and take them out. Again, it needs to convert all the old aircraft to drones. It also needs to add as many modern UCAVs as possible.


Stop saying things like flattening the whole island. PLA is not going to do that. We are having this whole discussion because the best way for them to take over Taiwan is a quick campaign that causes local to give up and surrender without causing large amount of casualties. You don't want rest of the world charging China with war crimes.


I think improving APS would be good idea. In the end if they are getting involved in this, they have to be prepared to take some hits and losses. The question is how you can keep your sorties going and destroy the SHORADs before they destroy you. That would have to rely on improved sensors on your ground attack aircraft and improved sortie rates. The more trips that JH-7A and J-16s can make through the battle field and take out different SHORADs and combat vehicles, the better you will do.

Again, PLAAF should be using PGMs a lot more effectively than the Russians.


That's because PLAAF does not really like to use J-10s for ground attack. On top of that, J-16s are still used more in the role of offensive A2A missions. That's why you don't see them carrying target pods. JH-7A should be using it. I'm sure if they are using J-16s for ground precision attacks, they will also hook up targeting pods.

All of this is to say they still need to invest more in PGMs and targeting capabilities.
But they ARE getting more and more MANPADS and ATGMs , you are assuming they will be fighting for victory which isn’t possible ,keep in mind that a large portion of them are just brainwashed jihadist without Koran ,the sheer idea of making them surrender is over optimistic and irresponsible, it could be done if we just destroy everything on that island but as we all knew the chance of PLA doing that is extremely low.
 

Philister

Junior Member
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How long would it take for China to gather enough forces for an actual invasion? Russia took a few months and it was clearly being monitored. China must have some sort of contingency plan for a sudden change in status quo, right?
You don’t know till you do, but I assume it will take more time than Russians do, more forces are needed and more plans have to be made, it’s a lot more complicated here
 

FairAndUnbiased

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First,Taiwan doesn’t have such drones, not yet
Second, if Taiwan ever purchased drones, it would be Tengyun/MQ-1/MQ-9, which are equipped with satcoms and Americans could just control them from the US/Japan/Guam, E-8s will be irrelevant anyway
OK. I agree.
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Problem is that the MQ-9s are turboprops and use kerosene while TB2s are piston and use gasoline. Though that is probably avgas and not gasoline used in cars, it still means TB2s can be fueled with an easily portable and disguised fuel than kerosene which is rarer and harder to hide.

In addition, TB2s are light enough to tow in cars (675 kg), have munitions light enough to load by hand (<150 kg) and can take off from short runways. MQ-9s are way heavier than cars (2200+ kg empty) and require a runway.

I actually think TW using MQ-9s is not so bad because it will likely be taken care of in the first wave of SEAD strikes. To me, MQ-9s look to be designed as a COIN weapon because it seems like they don't think their home base will be threatened and they'll have runway, fuel depots, etc. TB2 seems better designed for conventional conflicts.
 
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