Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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KYli

Brigadier
How long would it take for China to gather enough forces for an actual invasion? Russia took a few months and it was clearly being monitored. China must have some sort of contingency plan for a sudden change in status quo, right?
At least 3 months, it could take up to 6 months. Most experts believe if China really decided to attack, it would conduct a large scale exercise like Putin did. However, a Chinese general has said that PLA could attack next day if given order but it probably would not be a full scale invasion.

I am doubtful China would invade Taiwan if unprovoked. If provoked, then China has a lot of excuse to conduct military exercise to intimidate Taiwan to back down like in 96. As long as China has a reason to mass its troops facing Taiwan, then the timing of the attack would be up to China.
 

Blitzo

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Let's try to have a thread just discussing what the Russians did during this conflict and what can China learn. Please keep nukes and which countries you hate out of this discussion.

I think it is early days but there are a few major takeaways.
I've grouped my thoughts into "General lessons for military affairs," "System specific lessons" and "Recommendations for PLA force development/training and procurement".

These are all military specific, and does not broach on geopolitical relations, geoeconomic matters, nor civilian/PR/propaganda domains either.
I also do not include much naval specific lessons from the Ukraine war given there are basically no naval encounters of any value.

The below also is not exhaustive, but are the ones that have jumped out to me the most.

General lessons for military affairs:
-War optimism is a disease (never have one's political expectations or military strategy to be dependent on the enemy experiencing a "rapid collapse" or "lack of resolve" or being "welcomed as liberators")
-Military strategy must dovetail with political goals -- the speed, scale and intensity of required military operations must depend on what the political aims of your objective are, and the ambition of your political aims must be dependent on the real military capabilities you have available.
-No such thing as too large of a magazine size (dependent on common sense of course)
-No such thing as too competent of a logistics supply (dependent on common sense of course)
-No such thing as too much numerical overmatch (dependent on common sense of course)
-Joint service and joint force operations and training is vital to ensuring deconfliction of friendly forces.
-Ensure multiple layers of redundancy for your mission's success, so if one layer fails, another can ensure mission success -- in other words, no plan survives contact with the enemy.
-Do not assume your staging areas are invulnerable to the enemy even if you seemingly believe you have been able to strike your enemy's offensive capabilities -- always assume a degree of vulnerability such that you can adequately disperse, defend and repair your staging areas.
-Your peacetime tactics, techniques and procedures prior to a conflict should seek to as adequately reflect the conditions of the expected actual conflict as possible.


System specific lessons:
-"Insertion assaults" -- which includes air assaults (helicopter borne, and airdrop/paratrooper), and indeed amphibious assaults, are very high risk and vulnerable. Specifically, they are vulnerable to enemy counterattacks, if you do not have extensive and persistent fires support and ISR, and it goes without saying that it requires air superiority with ideally extensive SEAD/DEAD to be achieved as a prerequisite. In addition to firepower and ISR support/superiority, such "insertion assaults" need to be rapidly relieved by heavier forces if they are expected to survive. Due to said vulnerability, any military objective ideally should not hinge on the success of an "insertion assault", unless other options are exhausted/nonexistent -- in the case of the PLA and Taiwan, I believe a large scale amphibious invasion cannot be avoided, however a large scale helicopter borne air assault may not be necessary, and a paratrooper drop is absolutely unnecessary.
-Vulnerability of your inserted forces to enemy preplanned fires/artillery. Countering and mitigation of these will be vital.
-SEAD/DEAD and elimination of opposing aircraft vital to allowing semi-penetrating or penetrating CAS/interdiction and ISR, and even after a "successful" SEAD/DEAD campaign, penetrating aircraft should still have EW/ECM and some kind of fighter support.
-Third party ISR (aerial, space, intelligence) may be a factor to enable enemy targeting to be more effective even with denial of their own organic sensors. Both before and during a conflict. Such possibilities would have to be mitigated at minimum, ideally countered either with non-kinetic or kinetic options.
-A major enhancement of capability is if your forces are able to operate at night (i.e.: possession of night vision equipment in a widespread manner among multiple levels of organization), especially for ground forces.
-AFVs are vulnerable to ATGMs. Goes without saying.


Recommendations for PLA force development/training and procurement (note, I do not include procurement and development of new technological systems like swarming drones, stealth bombers, UGVs etc, or other systems that have not been shown to be mature either in the PLA or in international service)
-Procure PGMs and integrate with fighters and bombers at a relatively large scale -- the PLA are at a state where this can be afforded and it is a significant force multiplier and a necessity for a successful CAS and interdiction capability. Export showcases does not mean you have a large magazine size and integration among fighter types with training. Similarly, the 500kg LGBs that the PLA has in service (with JH-7/As and J-10A/B/Cs) are simply too large and does not allow for sufficient magazine-size-per-sortie to be effective. MALE UCAVs carrying 6-8 KD-10 sized ATGMs and 2-4 50kg PGMs is not a replacement for fast jets carrying a half dozen 250kg PGMs and a targeting pod.
-Buy aerial sensors (targeting pods, SAR pods, drones, JSTARS). This is obvious. All weather ISR capability in a distributed and persistent manner is vital to break opfor counter attacks, to conduct reattacks, and also to strike targets of opportunity, all in a dynamic ground environment.
-TACPs and JTACs are important and should seek to be trained and proliferated at as low of echelons with the army and marines as possible. The role of TACPs/JTACs in supporting CAS cannot be understated, and the role of CAS for enabling inserted forces cannot be understated either.
-SEAD/DEAD is important -- more EW/ECM, more ARMs. Goes without saying.
-Train for missions at scale and with the full spectrum of forces, separately if needed, ideally, in an integrated way. Complex air and naval environments in particular, and deconflicting of said forces.
-A large quantity of first/second echelon forces are vital to ensuring continuity of further operations. It will be important to procure more amphibious vessels and landing craft that can allow for larger first/second wave launches, as well as for facilities that can allow for rapid reinforcement (pontoons, mulberry harbours, with the assumption that it will be difficult to take ports in the first instance). Increasing first/second wave size and increasing the ability to rapidly reinforce them is vital. Yes, the PLA has these ships and systems, but they require more of them.
-Continue developing longer range air and blue water naval forces able to deter/check foreign snooping around area of operations, and to deter foreign air breathing ISR systems.
-Procure and build large magazine sizes of all weapon types, but especially missiles (from BVRAAMs, to SRBMs, to LACMs and ALCMs, to MRLS).
-The vulnerability of AFVs to ATGMs does not have a cheap solution. APS can mitigate ATGMs but is expensive and will be difficult to be widely proliferated. Using combined arms tactics and having sufficient AFVs to absorb losses and continue despite attritional losses, is important against ATGMs.
-Ensure that staging areas (both on the Chinese mainland, and amphibious assault ships that are deploying AAVs and landing craft) are well defended, even if one believes that opfor strike systems/anti ship systems have been adequately degraded.
-Helicopters are very vulnerable to conventional military forces due to proliferation of MANPADs. Their use must be done carefully, and likely best done in a combined arms fashion in support of ground mechanized forces rather than large scale helicopter only operations (like large scale vertical envelopments).
 
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KYli

Brigadier
I hope China can take Taiwan back in our lifetime, peacefully or otherwise. when you guys think CHina will be powerful enough to pull it off?
China should have the military capacity to launch a full scale invasion of Taiwan within a few years. However, the cost of such invasion might not be bearable for some people, in term of casualties and sanctions. If China could wait some what longer, then the cost would be significantly lower. However, there are signs that China might be forced to act.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The extent of air and naval mobilization in addition to ground mobilization (not only of mechanized forces but of air defenses) would be quite observable.

Perhaps the exact extent of it could be hidden, but foreign intelligence services will absolutely be capable of detecting a multi-month long buildup prior to initiation of hostilities on the scale that would be required for a proper Taiwan contingency that involves an invasion.


In other words, any PLA planning for such a contingency has to inevitably assume a fair degree of foreign forewarning. True strategic surprise will probably be impossible, though operational surprise might be viable.
somewhat agree.

the logistical mobilization can be hidden in civilian warehouses or warehouses built years before.

the air mobilization can be hidden by construction of more covered depots and aircraft shelters years before.

the air defense and PLARF mobilization will be a mixed bag. currently there's far too many SAM candidate sites and launch candidate sites even in a small slice of SE China to watch every one in real time. satellites can do multiple refresh shots but there are overflight windows. you can hide SAM units at nearby preprepared and camouflaged depots then within days of the operation beginning, drive out.

the naval mobilization is most difficult to hide as you would need to put as many ships in maintenance out to sea as you can and gather prepositioned and preloaded landing capable ships that have no other purpose.

the ground mobilization is second most difficult to hide as you would still need to move ground vehicles from storage depots to loading sites which are unlikely to be able to hide in civilian traffic.

I believe it'll be something like maybe 2 month of warning from the first signs of prepositioning military movements that may be mistaken for something else then ~1-2 weeks of unambiguous warning. I don't think it'll be 6 months.

With those 1-2 weeks we'd also know whether there is any possibility of direct foreign intervention or not. I'm sure there will be indirect foreign intervention no matter what.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Covid-19 outbreak in Wuhan probably the best indication of PLA rapid mobilization probably?

Going by this we would see personnel transported by HSR and a lot of touch and go Y-20 flights.

If Taiwan made a surprise Declaration of Independence, there would need to be an equal build up of some kind, no?

Would Taiwan drones really be an issue? I feel like any future quad-pack SAM from something like a future FFG providing forward anti air cover would be sufficient. Especially since there are not many drones projected to be in service.
 

HeiTangSeng

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PLA’s best course of reunification is to be able to choose when and how a war will be fought. Plan A is to issue an ultimatum to Wanwans of peaceful reunification when China is ready.

Plan B is what we have now, an ugly and extremely costly war if Taiwan crosses the redline.

I think every gov agency has a deadline they are trying to meet in the next few years, with fingers crossed that Plan B is not necessary.
 

Vatt’ghern

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Taiwan is only about the size of Massachusetts, whereas Ukraine is one of the largest countries in Europe, you’d only need a few regiments of PAP to keep order so the rest of the PLA can destroy the enemy
 

bustead

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think one very important lesson is the use nuclear deterrence/coercion.
Russia is not in a good spot. It is conventionally weaker than NATO, faced with relatively high casualties and losses in Ukraine and have logistical difficulties. However, Russia is able to effectively hold itself against NATO by threatening to use nuclear weapons. If China is now faced with a war against the US, threatening nuclear attacks on other states (like India) can stop them from doing anything stupid. Even if they try something, second-line/reserve units with tactical nuclear weapons can easily hold themselves against enemy elite units.
This means that nuclear weapons can be used as an amplifier of conventional strength. China should do the following:
1. Deploy tactical nuclear weapons in frontline units. China has tactical nuclear weapons but is not deploying them in significant numbers. Better to build up a tactical nuclear force in case of a crisis.
2. Build up a nuclear force that is big enough to deter both the US and its allies in the region. Both tactically and strategically.
3. Plan for the use of nuclear weapons. In other words, have a plan about gradual escalation and tactical nuclear exchanges before going full MAD.
4. Abandon the minimum deterrence stance and expand the nuclear arsenal. Anywhere from 1000 to 4000 warheads are needed to ensure that China can use the nuclear deterrent with significant flexibility.
 

Godzilla

Junior Member
Registered Member
somewhat agree.

the logistical mobilization can be hidden in civilian warehouses or warehouses built years before.

the air mobilization can be hidden by construction of more covered depots and aircraft shelters years before.

the air defense and PLARF mobilization will be a mixed bag. currently there's far too many SAM candidate sites and launch candidate sites even in a small slice of SE China to watch every one in real time. satellites can do multiple refresh shots but there are overflight windows. you can hide SAM units at nearby preprepared and camouflaged depots then within days of the operation beginning, drive out.

the naval mobilization is most difficult to hide as you would need to put as many ships in maintenance out to sea as you can and gather prepositioned and preloaded landing capable ships that have no other purpose.

the ground mobilization is second most difficult to hide as you would still need to move ground vehicles from storage depots to loading sites which are unlikely to be able to hide in civilian traffic.

I believe it'll be something like maybe 2 month of warning from the first signs of prepositioning military movements that may be mistaken for something else then ~1-2 weeks of unambiguous warning. I don't think it'll be 6 months.

With those 1-2 weeks we'd also know whether there is any possibility of direct foreign intervention or not. I'm sure there will be indirect foreign intervention no matter what.

Actually it is not that simple to hide in Fujian. We have very few flat plains with the bulk of the area very hilly. The equipment will probably be on railway coming through from Zhejiang & Guangdong, and not through the hills as it is a bitch to drive through. There are some good stretches of highway but also lots of country/village roads. There are also alot of Taiwanese business people in Fujian, so nothing gets hidden there for too long.
Its definitely a good place to hide air defense assets though. When I was in primary school in Longtian, they organized tours into some of the radar sites in Jingshan. There was alot of shelters cut into the mountains and there were alot of them, most of them empty. This was back in the 80s!

In terms of seaport, aside from Pingtan, Quanzhou and Putian, Fuzhou & Xiamen ports are way too close to Jinmen & Matsu. So I am curious, in terms of staging, and given just the shear quantity of ports available along the Eastern sea board, wouldn't they utilize all of the ports in Guangdong / Zhejiang & coordinate between the Southern & Eastern theater command for some rendezvous point in the strait for the first wave, and use Fujian as a faint and only utilize it for the second wave / logistics hub? The rail & highway network would really come into its own by then.
 
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