Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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Breadbox

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I've noticed that during Russian offensives, despite the overwhelming preparatory artillery fire, Ukrainian defenders have not been suppressed, much less destroyed.(It's a good, relatively unbiased channel, it tell of both success and failures of Russian forces in equal measures)

It's easy to miss, but the video mentioned underground bunkers and positions. Which I believe might be the most under appreciate part of the war(or any war in general) and would explain the mystifying ability for Ukrainian positions to survive artillery barrages.

It reminds me alot of the Korean War, the Anglo Coalition forces have an absolute superiority in long range firepower yet was unable to push even an inch once the front stabilised because of the extensive overground fortification and underground shelters/tunnels.

PVA soldiers would descend into their underground fortifications during bombardments and then emerge to stop the Anglo coalition dead in their tracks. IE: Battle of Shanggangling/Triangle Hill

I hope the PLA have not neglected the tradition of building earthworks. Those with firepower superiority have a tendency of overestimating their effects, when in reality, it usually produced less than the desired result. Desert Storm/Iraqi Freedumb are the few instances where fire superiority have produced the desired result.
 
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tankphobia

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I've noticed that during Russian offensives, despite the overwhelming preparatory artillery fire, Ukrainian defenders have not been suppressed, much less destroyed.(It's a good, relatively unbiased channel, it tell of both success and failures of Russian forces in equal measures)

It's easy to miss, but the video mentioned underground bunkers and positions. Which I believe might be the most under appreciate part of the war(or any war in general) and would explain the mystifying ability for Ukrainian positions to survive artillery barrages.

It reminds me alot of the Korean War, the Anglo Coalition forces have an absolute superiority in long range firepower yet was unable to push even an inch once the front stabilised because of the extensive overground fortification and underground shelters/tunnels.

PVA soldiers would descend into their underground fortifications during bombardments and then emerge to stop the Anglo coalition dead in their tracks. IE: Battle of Shanggangling/Triangle Hill

I hope the PLA have not neglected the tradition of building earthworks. Those with firepower superiority have a tendency of overestimating their effects, when in reality, it usually produced less than the desired result. Desert Storm/Iraqi Freedumb are the few instances where fire superiority have produced the desired result.
The Russian way of artillery suppression also chews through stockpiles like nothing, very few countries could continuosly fire upwards of 60,000 artillery rounds a day without going into war economy, a little precision fire and guided munitions goes a long way towards achieving coverage without relying on saturation.

Air burst rounds will also reduce the effect of concealment/trenches as most of the energy will not be dissipated into the ground.
 

HighGround

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Now with lessons pertaining to Ukraine in particular

Lesson 1: Tanks are useless and too vulnerable.

Well, think we've all heard arguments and counter arguments to that countless time, so I wouldn't elaborate on this point too much. Tanks as a blunt instrument of breakthrough are indeed quite dead, Infantry Anti-tank weapons have advanced too much and became too common, infantry screens cannot and will not protect tanks against ATGM, this is simply not possible for rifleman to defend tanks against 2 guys hiding in the tree line 2 km away. I believe tanks nowadays can more accurately be described as firesupport platforms, which are obviously still useful.

Lesson 2: Artillery win wars

This isn't a kneejerk response to US' wars as it is conventional wisdom, this isn't wrong but it isn't the full story. Artillery is responsible for the majority of casualties in past wars as well as the present one in Ukraine. This is widely known and as a result, the Russian military is the most artillery heavy in the world, by all accounts, it fired an astronomically number of shells in the opening phase of the Ukraine war. So why is it that Russia have so little territorial gain to show for such an enormous display of firepower while being unable to silence Ukrainian artillery though counter battery fire?

IMO, this is due to the almost criminal neglect of Reconnaissance portion of Reconnaissance Strike Complex. We would frequently see the so called "Human wave attacks" appear in Western discourse, which are more correctly interpreted as reconnaissance through contact, where infantry units are being sent forward to initiate direct contact with defenders which are then identified and flattened with artillery. Needless to say, defenders have an inherent advantage and those infantry units took massive casualties, which is highly demoralizing and debilitating to BTGs which are short on infantry to begin with.

I suspect that most of the shells fired in the early wars are simply wasted, as artillery are ordered to pour fire on phantom targets that might or might not be there. Russian units lack the capability to accurately assess the strength and position of defenders outside of the fact that they were being fired upon. I found this to have a shocking resemblance to the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq's military is well-equipped with the latest foreign artillery pieces as Saddam, informed by conventional wisdom, overloaded his military with it. Yet territorial gains are slow to non existent as mechanized divisions are halted by Iranian militias as they waited for their artillery do the heavy lifting for them when fired upon. Again, I don't want to discount the fact that assaults' without indirect fire are extremely costly, but lack of low cost reconnaissance via drones have cost the Russians dearly as they lack the intel to leverage their artillery superiority.


Lesson 3: MALE Drones are wonder weapons at first, but becomes useless after air defenses come online.

MALE drones in this context specifically refers to large reconnaissance strike drones like the Bayraktar or larger. The popular narrative now is that success of MALE drones are short-lived and that they have limited value due to their vulnerability to air defense, their success at the start of the war are purely due to initial confusion in the Russian ranks.

I feel like the narrative have swung too far in the other direction, as this fail to take into account that Ukraine's SEAD capabilities are practically zero and Russia is the inheritor of the world's most comprehensive ground based air-defense systems. Pitting MALE drone against Soviet air-defense systems with hardly anything else in the air is not the recipe for continued success. Comparatively, the air defense systems of the United States and its allies are much less advanced and numerous. Correct me if I'm missing something, but US SHORAD appear to be comprised mostly of stingers on Humvees.

It is in my opinion that MALE drones would be the most decisive weapons in the land component of the reunification war as it significantly enhances reconnaissance and strike at a fraction of the cost of manned air craft, while exploiting the SHORAD gap that are often present in western air defense systems. The terrain of Taiwan is also highly complex where the mobility of mechanized formations is heavily constrained, target acquisition and destruction of backline support assets is unlikely via direct contact or regular artillery. Unlike Ukraine, who completely relies on external actors to supply them with a meager number of MALE drones, China is the world's largest industrial base who manufactured its own drone fleet. China can easily manufacture a large enough drone fleet which will drastically amplify air support and overwhelm collaborationist air-defense when working in tandem of PLAAF SEAD.
For a very rough and imprecise analogy I would liken MALE drones to CAS aircraft/attack helicopters to Early Iron weapons and Bronze weapons, where the quality of Bronze weapons is meaningless compared to easy mass manufacturing of Iron weapons(early iron weapons are worse than Bronze weapons), you can bang on about how much more range and payload a manned aircraft can have but 1 manned aircraft will never provide the intel and on demand strike capability of 10 drones. What is curious for the US is how the cost of their own drones have ballooned out of proportion, so much so that their drones are as expensive manned aircraft, in this regard China have a distinct advantage.

I think it's very foolish to try to derive lessons with selective data. I put very low stock in results-driven analysis. Here are some things I think you should consider.

Lesson 1:

We haven't determined what the primary killer of tanks on the battlefield is. Firstly, while the airspace is contested, Ukraine doesn't have any good ground-attack platforms anyway. They don't have large amount of high quality target pods and ground attack PGMs. Neither does Russia really, because Russia doesn't have the required multi-spectrum reconnaissance complex necessary for air power to be truly effective. For all we know, air power is the real tank killer.

Second, we know that artillery is a significant contributor to tank kills on the battlefield. But that has been true for the entirety of the Cold War, and that hardly rendered tanks obsolete. In fact, tanks should work in conjunction with artillery.

Third, we have to consider the first week of Russian ROE. It's abundantly clear, that Russian soldiers had strict orders not to even hint at terrorizing the populace. The Russian Army was doing ridiculous thunder runs, that were begging to be ambushed and shot at by prepared ATGM teams. After the first week, BTG organic supply started to run out, which is when the looting started. But at that point, Russia had to start trying to remedy its effort after it was clear that Ukrainians were going to resist. Isolated Russian pockets quickly came under fire from both UA regulars and Ukrainian partisans. Detached and unsupported elements quickly came under fire, as did supply columns attempting to relieve and resupply these pockets.

All of this is hardly proof that tanks are obsolete. On the contrary, even in the Summer, we saw how effective tanks are. BMP, IFV, and armored cars are quickly destroyed by even light AT weapons. Whereas I've seen T-72B3s take a hit from a Javelin and survive. I don't know if the tank is obsolete, but even the mass proliferation of ATGMs has failed to make tanks undesirable to either side. Both sides continue to use them in assaults and both sides desperately want and praise higher quality tanks.

Lesson 2:

I don't think you identified the correct issue here. Neither side seems to lack company level DJI drones for reconnaissance. That's not the issue. The issue is horrific coordination and lack of proper ISTAR. This is why both Russia and Ukraine rely so heavily on using small infantry squads to "feel out" the enemy in "grey zones". I'm not saying this should never happen, but it should not be happening so often. Furthermore, I see scant evidence of proper combined armed assaults by either army. This again, indicates poor coordination and communication.

What I think the real lesson here should be, is that precision > quantity, and that communication and coordination is incredibly important. Identifying enemy weak points or your objectives, planning an operation, executing that operation, and doing that process over and over again, is the primary bottleneck for both Russia and Ukraine. Russia could do with a lot less artillery if they could properly aim it at the right spots on the maps, at the time of their choosing.

Lesson 3:

Drones are basically an expenditure. IMO, this war has proven now, that they are necessary at all levels. You need small drones, medium drones, large drones, low altitude, medium altitude, high altitude, low endurance, high endurance. You need a lot of them because they are going to be attrited.

I don't think they are replacing anything. I think the Attack Helicopter is basically a very unique, very specialized weapon and cannot be properly replaced by a drone.

Drones are simply a new type of weapon category that are an absolute necessity to any modern force. You need a lot of them, and while you don't necessarily need every single type of drone, there are absolutely capabilities that drones introduce that any force structure must provide.
 

FriedButter

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Third, we have to consider the first week of Russian ROE. It's abundantly clear, that Russian soldiers had strict orders not to even hint at terrorizing the populace.

Terrorizing civilians wouldn’t achieve anything. What makes you think going around and killing or beating up civilians will make them less willing to fight? One of the bigger issue is still the hesitantion in destroying critical infrastructure rather than the civilians themselves.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Terrorizing civilians wouldn’t achieve anything. What makes you think going around and killing or beating up civilians will make them less willing to fight? One of the bigger issue is still the hesitantion in destroying critical infrastructure rather than the civilians themselves.
A restrictive ROE is an issue when Ukrainian soldiers are hiding among civilians and civilian buildings.

Russia stopped worrying about hitting “hospitals” and “schools” only after they got a “bloody nose”. Russia should’ve went in fully prepared for resistance and blown up everything that looked at them wrong.

Russia’s biggest mistake was thinking Ukraine couldn’t fight, instead of being ready to fight the biggest European War since WWII.
 

Chilled_k6

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lesson 2:

I don't think you identified the correct issue here. Neither side seems to lack company level DJI drones for reconnaissance. That's not the issue. The issue is horrific coordination and lack of proper ISTAR. This is why both Russia and Ukraine rely so heavily on using small infantry squads to "feel out" the enemy in "grey zones". I'm not saying this should never happen, but it should not be happening so often. Furthermore, I see scant evidence of proper combined armed assaults by either army. This again, indicates poor coordination and communication.

What I think the real lesson here should be, is that precision > quantity, and that communication and coordination is incredibly important. Identifying enemy weak points or your objectives, planning an operation, executing that operation, and doing that process over and over again, is the primary bottleneck for both Russia and Ukraine. Russia could do with a lot less artillery if they could properly aim it at the right spots on the maps, at the time of their choosing.

For Lesson 2, I would add speed to your precision. Many times I see videos of Lancets striking Ukrainian artillery pieces, but the gun crews have already left. They could probably spot the drone from quite a distance away or hear it approaching and abandon position, or maybe they spotted the recon drone. Too much time to react, kill chain needs to be shorten.
 
D

Deleted member 23272

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Lesson 1: Tanks are useless and too vulnerable.
You're not breaking defensive lines and fortified positions with just foot soldiers using shoulder fired rockets alone. Granted tanks aren't going to be off that much use to China in any of its war scenarios, since the terrain be it India or Taiwan is going to be mountainous, and with Taiwan of course naval and air assets are going to be the deciding factor before a single PLA grunt lands on the beaches. Back to the main point though, in a land war armored vehicles are still very much a necessity to break enemy lines. Where Russia has consistently failed despite having the world's biggest fleet of armored vehicles is combined arms.

Afterall, we just learned from this war that a so-called military superpower actually has a less sophisticated precision guided munitions arsenal than Iran, nevermind China. Their failures at the beginning of the war were due to arrogance more than anything else, since I assumed the Russians not to mention almost every military analyst, thought just the sight of massed columns of armored vehicles would cause the Ukrainian morale to break and we already saw the results of such arrogance. Their most recent armored assault failure, which was Vuhledar, probably better highlights this main point of failure in combined arms combat. Carpet bombing an area with artillery can only do so much if everyone is well dug in and their artillery is well hidden, you need proper surveillance to find their assets and locations then hit them with precision air support. And since Russia has lagged in intelligence gathering, the use of its air assets, not to mention simply doesn't have that much precision munitions, the Russian marines undertaking the biggest armored attack of the war since Kyiv got slaughtered.
 

Franklin

Captain
Lessons learned for China from the Ukraine War.

1. The army needs to go back to a divisions structure because brigades are too small to be effective in a conventional war. The smaller brigades can maneuver faster but doesn't have the punch of a larger unit like a division but more importantly its less able to take losses.

2. More resources for combined arms training.

3. More investments in the ground forces.

4. Cut the bureaucracy in logistics.

5. Stock up on munition and parts.

6. Invest more in long range artillery rockets like the PHL-16 platform. So that the army will have a larger role in hitting targets. This is both cheaper and less risky. As this does not involve expensive planes and missile's and you are not putting pilots life's at risk.

7. Invest more in unmanned platforms for the same reason as 6.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
Lessons learned for China from the Ukraine War.

1. The army needs to go back to a divisions structure because brigades are too small to be effective in a conventional war. The smaller brigades can maneuver faster but doesn't have the punch of a larger unit like a division but more importantly its less able to take losses.

The Russian BTG is reportedly made up of 20-25% infantry and is 6-8 times smaller than a full brigade. They are hardly comparable.
 

Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lessons learned for China from the Ukraine War.

1. The army needs to go back to a divisions structure because brigades are too small to be effective in a conventional war. The smaller brigades can maneuver faster but doesn't have the punch of a larger unit like a division but more importantly its less able to take losses.

2. More resources for combined arms training.

3. More investments in the ground forces.

4. Cut the bureaucracy in logistics.

5. Stock up on munition and parts.

6. Invest more in long range artillery rockets like the PHL-16 platform. So that the army will have a larger role in hitting targets. This is both cheaper and less risky. As this does not involve expensive planes and missile's and you are not putting pilots life's at risk.

7. Invest more in unmanned platforms for the same reason as 6.

Nah, I doubt that there is a single perfect way of military doctrine to win them all. We all know that offensive war is always bloody. It is actually an conventional wisdom from the ancient time warfare. To mitigate the loss, all military will try a new doctrine that they think more effective, and bring more advantage to their side in a war.

This is the reason why United States often reluctant to bring their army to the battlefield, and prefer to use their air support more. They often choose to use their allies ground forces to do the grinding. That's because ground battle is always bloody. Look at Afghanistan. When US began their military operation to kick Taliban from their throne, in 2001, they used Taliban's enemy as the ground troops; while United States positioned themselves as the air support. They looks glorious, just because it is the Taliban's oppositions who suffer the meat grinding in the war.

I don't think that a conventional division setup can help China better. I think China's current combined armed brigade is better than their old division doctrine. The problem is how to make their army more effective, and working, without throwing their army into a real battle.
 
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