Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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Biscuits

Major
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Well, my guess is that the W76-2 warheads have an original non-warfare purpose. The US probably did that to lower their nuclear stockpile maintenance costs. I think that these warheads are actually the same W76 warheads with their secondary stage removed. The primary stage is usually quite small, so a 5-7kt yield should be around that range. The The secondary stage costs more to maintain, especially because the tritium in it.

Nevertheless, the human factor is the main problem. Due to the existence of 'low-yield' warheads, American war mongers and defence planners started thinking about using it creatively. Such as using them as 'conventional weapons' because they explode below an imaginary 'nuclear war threshold'. And then the rest of this insane concept with regards to China, as I have explained before.


The problem for the US is that losing its unipolar hegemony is the existential threat. The American elites have never thought about losing that. I don't know if they can ever find comfort in defeat.

The biggest lesson that China must learn from Russia, is its journey from the fall of the Soviet Union to the present Russia-Ukraine war. Never ever trust the US and the West. If they offer you a way out of a Cold War, its probably a poison pill. China has no choice other than to build hard power parity with the US and its allies for its own security. The US elites must be decisively convinced, that any nuclear war with China is essentially game over, with no chance of survival.
Some of them will always think that "losing" to China means no chance of survival. Then, they would rather go out together in a blaze of glory. The only military way to deny them would be a succesful first strike, but that is not realistic.

China should ironically look to how US itself got rid of the USSR without triggering nuclear war. A big part of that was ensuring that the corrupt among soviet elites would be elevated and privileged.

If China made it explicit that it will execute all US elites with criminal ties, work towards a global revolution with no room for oligarchs anywhere on the globe, then US has a much higher chance of seeking MAD.

However, if China restrains itself to building communism within a single country + its allies, lets American elites have some sort of graceful exit, perhaps allow them to keep a certain stomping ground in the 3rd world, then there are much lower or non existent chances of nuclear war.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
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Some of them will always think that "losing" to China means no chance of survival. Then, they would rather go out together in a blaze of glory. The only military way to deny them would be a succesful first strike, but that is not realistic.

China should ironically look to how US itself got rid of the USSR without triggering nuclear war. A big part of that was ensuring that the corrupt among soviet elites would be elevated and privileged.

If China made it explicit that it will execute all US elites with criminal ties, work towards a global revolution with no room for oligarchs anywhere on the globe, then US has a much higher chance of seeking MAD.

However, if China restrains itself to building communism within a single country + its allies, lets American elites have some sort of graceful exit, perhaps allow them to keep a certain stomping ground in the 3rd world, then there are much lower or non existent chances of nuclear war.
I don't think China need to do anything particularly unusual here, America is already doing that on their own. Trumpism/America First and the tendency for isolationism is already their graceful exit.

Trump has been scoring a lot of brownie points recently with his visit to Ohio giving out bottled water and buying lunch. I'm wondering within GOP does he have more support than DeSantis now?
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
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I don't think China need to do anything particularly unusual here, America is already doing that on their own. Trumpism/America First and the tendency for isolationism is already their graceful exit.

Trump has been scoring a lot of brownie points recently with his visit to Ohio giving out bottled water and buying lunch. I'm wondering within GOP does he have more support than DeSantis now?
China can mostly mind its own business and watch America destroy itself. Unless the US and the DPP does something crazy.

I am not sure how safe a second Trump presidency is for world peace. In the last one, there were the: Bombardment of Syria, Trade wars, HK riots, Anti-China wave, Suleimani Assassination, and Covid-19 (which in my own opinion was a US bio-attack). Trump will be inheriting an even more belligerent America from Biden. While Trump himself is not the most vicious of neocons, he was still surrounded by some of the worst scums in the US govt. People like Mike Pompeo, Peter Navarro, John Bolton, Wilbur Ross, Robert Lighthizer, etc. I remembered Wilbur Ross saying that the Covid-19 outbreak in Wuhan was a good opportunity for moving jobs back from China to America. Sounds familiar? Hint: Nordstream.

The last Trump presidency was far from an isolationist administration. I doubt the next one will be any different. Biden may have provoked the Russia-Ukraine war, but Trump kicked-off the Cold-War with China. Trump may be just a clown. But the US elites who dominate the US government are evil. Thus, I believe a second Trump administration is not gonna reduce US belligerence. I think the belligerence is gonna escalate even more, especially with China.

2024 is gonna be a wild year. The Renegade province of Taiwan, USA, and India will be having their presidential or general elections. Taiwan and India will be having elections in early 2024. While the USA, in late 2024. I suspect that somewhere in the middle of this year, its gonna be interesting times for China. It needs to stay extra vigilant for any provocations, colour revolutions, scandals, and other nasty events that might suddenly erupt. Better to be safe than sorry.
 
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HighGround

Senior Member
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I don't think China need to do anything particularly unusual here, America is already doing that on their own. Trumpism/America First and the tendency for isolationism is already their graceful exit.

Trump has been scoring a lot of brownie points recently with his visit to Ohio giving out bottled water and buying lunch. I'm wondering within GOP does he have more support than DeSantis now?
He doesn't. It's only 2023 though. Things change.
 

davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
He doesn't. It's only 2023 though. Things change.
That bloke is ectremely dangerous, should read Mary Trump, his cousin, who disclosed facts about his outraged behaviour since his youth. If elected he would probaly causes WIII! Hope the ordinary Americans and the world at large can see through him and reject him totally in 2024 election. Biden's not much better. The US should find some younger, talented politician to fill the present political straught jacket.
 

pevade

Junior Member
Registered Member
That bloke is ectremely dangerous, should read Mary Trump, his cousin, who disclosed facts about his outraged behaviour since his youth. If elected he would probaly causes WIII! Hope the ordinary Americans and the world at large can see through him and reject him totally in 2024 election. Biden's not much better. The US should find some younger, talented politician to fill the present political straught jacket.
Oh yea, we know how insane Trump is. Which is precisely why I'm rooting for him to win the election.
 

luosifen

Senior Member
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Has the topic of preventing PLA friendly fire been discussed in this thread before? The Americans, Russians and Ukrainians have all had incidents of these happen, wondering if the Chinese IFF and other integration has taken lessons from these events. Also, have there been reported Blue on Blue during Dingxin/Zhurihe and any other training exercises?
 

Breadbox

Junior Member
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I feel like people have a tendency to overlearn some lessons from previous wars due to a lack of dialectical analysis, basically the failure to consider alternative arguments. Through observation through US and Russia's past wars, specifically Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Chechenia, a lot of people have arrived at wrong conclusions by assuming all wars to be more similar than they are.

Lesson 1:
Winning conventional wars is easy, winning counter-insurgencies is hard.

First, I believe the US experience in the middle east are can't be replicated. Russia have to rush their wars due to political reasons, whereas the propaganda advantage of the Anglo Cartel allow them to portray any wars they wage as righteous, allowing them to prepare as much as they want without interruptions.

Let's take Desert Storm for example, I don't believe most people realized how outmatched Iraq really is. Numerically, American troops alone outnumber the entire Iraqi forces. Iraq have no external supporters, with France straight up compromising the Iraqi air defenses when the Americans asked (their Soviet AD systems are managed by French networks and trained by the British. Don't buy from Europe, seriously, just don't, they are not your friends and will sell out to the Americans every time). The coalition conducted 42 days of uninterrupted air campaign before beginning the ground offensive, while Iraq merely watched as the coalition build up in Saudi Arabia.
This an interesting write up on Iraqi airdefense during desert storm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/rkjc6h Months of Uninterrupted air campaign is absolutely not a luxury that can afforded to anyone but the United States,

Secondly, I think it's a huge surprise to everyone how well Ukraine is able to hold out conventionally, this is an obvious sign that conventional ground push is a lot harder than most people assume, on the other hand, when given a choice of fighting conventionally or as irregular guerrilla, most would prefer fighting as a part of conventional forces. This obviously bolsters the strength of conventional forces but also reduces the manpower available to insurgencies, there is no point to preparing to fight insurgencies without overcoming the hurdle of conventional forces first. In a way, stiff conventional resistance is mutually exclusive to a thriving Guerilla campaign.

Lesson 2:
Downsizing is the way to go
In the past few decade, we have seen the downsizing of pretty much every major militaries in the world, the Battalion Tactical Group, Combined Arms Brigade and Brigade Combat Team have become the new basic independent unit formations. It is conventional wisdom that the downsizing of division into brigades(Russia seem to went even further with the downsizing than US and China) allow for greater rapid response capabilities, increase professionalization while freeing up the budget to increase the quality of equipment and personnel. It is generally assumed that amplified firepower could make up for the low frontline personnel strength, however, as we can see in Ukraine, increasingly lethal modern weaponry have resulted in unprecedented casualty figures within a short timeframe while major casualties could render smaller formations unable to function independently. BTGs in Ukraine suffered from chronic low infantry strength and were subjected to frequent reorganization and consolidation into ad hoc formations.

Lesson 3: Squad level fire support is purely a good thing.

Many observers are no doubts impressed by the responsiveness of US fire support, by how US infantry squad have a direct line of communication and the authority to call in airstrikes or artillery at a minute's notice. While pushing heavy firepower down to the squad level have its obvious advantages, it is not realistic unless you drastically outclasses your opponent conventionally. We can observe crippling level of ammo usages in the war in Ukraine, where two conventional armies of similar size duked it out, this isn't the whack a mole war that the United States is fighting for the past 60 years. Pushing fire support down to every squad may be inadvisable due to a lack of ammunition, overloading of command and communication and poor resource prioritization.

TLDR: Counter-insurgency tends to suffer from an overabundance of firepower and lack of targets, conventional war tends to suffer from an overabundance of targets and lack of firepower, assess and plan accordingly.
 

Breadbox

Junior Member
Registered Member
Now with lessons pertaining to Ukraine in particular

Lesson 1: Tanks are useless and too vulnerable.

Well, think we've all heard arguments and counter arguments to that countless time, so I wouldn't elaborate on this point too much. Tanks as a blunt instrument of breakthrough are indeed quite dead, Infantry Anti-tank weapons have advanced too much and became too common, infantry screens cannot and will not protect tanks against ATGM, this is simply not possible for rifleman to defend tanks against 2 guys hiding in the tree line 2 km away. I believe tanks nowadays can more accurately be described as firesupport platforms, which are obviously still useful.

Lesson 2: Artillery win wars

This isn't a kneejerk response to US' wars as it is conventional wisdom, this isn't wrong but it isn't the full story. Artillery is responsible for the majority of casualties in past wars as well as the present one in Ukraine. This is widely known and as a result, the Russian military is the most artillery heavy in the world, by all accounts, it fired an astronomically number of shells in the opening phase of the Ukraine war. So why is it that Russia have so little territorial gain to show for such an enormous display of firepower while being unable to silence Ukrainian artillery though counter battery fire?

IMO, this is due to the almost criminal neglect of Reconnaissance portion of Reconnaissance Strike Complex. We would frequently see the so called "Human wave attacks" appear in Western discourse, which are more correctly interpreted as reconnaissance through contact, where infantry units are being sent forward to initiate direct contact with defenders which are then identified and flattened with artillery. Needless to say, defenders have an inherent advantage and those infantry units took massive casualties, which is highly demoralizing and debilitating to BTGs which are short on infantry to begin with.

I suspect that most of the shells fired in the early wars are simply wasted, as artillery are ordered to pour fire on phantom targets that might or might not be there. Russian units lack the capability to accurately assess the strength and position of defenders outside of the fact that they were being fired upon. I found this to have a shocking resemblance to the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq's military is well-equipped with the latest foreign artillery pieces as Saddam, informed by conventional wisdom, overloaded his military with it. Yet territorial gains are slow to non existent as mechanized divisions are halted by Iranian militias as they waited for their artillery do the heavy lifting for them when fired upon. Again, I don't want to discount the fact that assaults' without indirect fire are extremely costly, but lack of low cost reconnaissance via drones have cost the Russians dearly as they lack the intel to leverage their artillery superiority.


Lesson 3: MALE Drones are wonder weapons at first, but becomes useless after air defenses come online.

MALE drones in this context specifically refers to large reconnaissance strike drones like the Bayraktar or larger. The popular narrative now is that success of MALE drones are short-lived and that they have limited value due to their vulnerability to air defense, their success at the start of the war are purely due to initial confusion in the Russian ranks.

I feel like the narrative have swung too far in the other direction, as this fail to take into account that Ukraine's SEAD capabilities are practically zero and Russia is the inheritor of the world's most comprehensive ground based air-defense systems. Pitting MALE drone against Soviet air-defense systems with hardly anything else in the air is not the recipe for continued success. Comparatively, the air defense systems of the United States and its allies are much less advanced and numerous. Correct me if I'm missing something, but US SHORAD appear to be comprised mostly of stingers on Humvees.

It is in my opinion that MALE drones would be the most decisive weapons in the land component of the reunification war as it significantly enhances reconnaissance and strike at a fraction of the cost of manned air craft, while exploiting the SHORAD gap that are often present in western air defense systems. The terrain of Taiwan is also highly complex where the mobility of mechanized formations is heavily constrained, target acquisition and destruction of backline support assets is unlikely via direct contact or regular artillery. Unlike Ukraine, who completely relies on external actors to supply them with a meager number of MALE drones, China is the world's largest industrial base who manufactured its own drone fleet. China can easily manufacture a large enough drone fleet which will drastically amplify air support and overwhelm collaborationist air-defense when working in tandem of PLAAF SEAD.
For a very rough and imprecise analogy I would liken MALE drones to CAS aircraft/attack helicopters to Early Iron weapons and Bronze weapons, where the quality of Bronze weapons is meaningless compared to easy mass manufacturing of Iron weapons(early iron weapons are worse than Bronze weapons), you can bang on about how much more range and payload a manned aircraft can have but 1 manned aircraft will never provide the intel and on demand strike capability of 10 drones. What is curious for the US is how the cost of their own drones have ballooned out of proportion, so much so that their drones are as expensive manned aircraft, in this regard China have a distinct advantage.
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
Air defense missiles are much more expensive than low end drones. If your military industrial complex can produce more drones more quickly than the enemy can produce air defense missiles, you effectively win in just a matter of time. You will exhaust their stockpiles and then your drones go back to dominating.
 
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