Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I think some lessons will simply not be applicable to the Taiwan scenario. In Taiwan, the PRC will have to engage into a sea invasion, and then there might be heavy city fighting in cities comparatively huge to those in Ukraine. Because of the conflict in Ukraine, they lost over 12 million people as refugees at this point, so right now a lot of their large cities will be mostly empty, and this will make the invasion a lot easier. This won't be the case in Taiwan since the people won't have anywhere to leave. As I fully expect China to completely encircle Taiwan.

What I think might be a good idea in the case of Taiwan is China investing into tiltrotor aircraft. This will basically vastly reduce the time required for putting the first wave into place, and reduce response time. So between using air power and drone strikes to control the air, and using tiltrotors for rapid troop insertions, you would then do a massive sea lift and conquer the place.

China also needs to consider some kind of vehicle for city fighting. The Russians had issues with the T-72 and T-80 not being to elevate their guns to fire on high rise buildings in Chechnya, and the PRC might have the same issues in Taiwan.
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think some lessons will simply not be applicable to the Taiwan scenario. In Taiwan, the PRC will have to engage into a sea invasion, and then there might be heavy city fighting in cities comparatively huge to those in Ukraine. Because of the conflict in Ukraine, they lost over 12 million people as refugees at this point, so right now a lot of their large cities will be mostly empty, and this will make the invasion a lot easier. This won't be the case in Taiwan since the people won't have anywhere to leave. As I fully expect China to completely encircle Taiwan.

What I think might be a good idea in the case of Taiwan is China investing into tiltrotor aircraft. This will basically vastly reduce the time required for putting the first wave into place, and reduce response time. So between using air power and drone strikes to control the air, and using tiltrotors for rapid troop insertions, you would then do a massive sea lift and conquer the place.

China also needs to consider some kind of vehicle for city fighting. The Russians had issues with the T-72 and T-80 not being to elevate their guns to fire on high rise buildings in Chechnya, and the PRC might have the same issues in Taiwan.
I don't think we would see a massive sea lift campaign until immediately after (or even simultaneously during) an overwhelming missile bombardment of all pre-located Taiwanese defense platforms and military infrastructure. If I recall correctly, and at least according to US war game assumptions, the only defenses and military infrastructure in Taiwan to survive a first wave of missile strikes would be anything perfectly disguised as civilian infrastructure. It's ironic, because even with their insane propaganda and demonization of China, their own war gaming assumes China to be extremely humanistic about causing unnecessary civilian casualties. In many ways, this lines up with their implicit assumptions about Russia. Hence their direction to Ukraine's armed forces in the use of hospitals/schools/residential apartment buildings as military defense structures, essentially holding civilians hostage as cannon fodder/human shields. Expect to see the same tactics used in Taiwan (if not even more extreme than that).
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I don't think we would see a massive sea lift campaign until immediately after (or even simultaneously during) an overwhelming missile bombardment of all pre-located Taiwanese defense platforms and military infrastructure. If I recall correctly, and at least according to US war game assumptions, the only defenses and military infrastructure in Taiwan to survive a first wave of missile strikes would be anything perfectly disguised as civilian infrastructure. It's ironic, because even with their insane propaganda and demonization of China, their own war gaming assumes China to be extremely humanistic about causing unnecessary civilian casualties. In many ways, this lines up with their implicit assumptions about Russia. Hence their direction to Ukraine's armed forces in the use of hospitals/schools/residential apartment buildings as military defense structures, essentially holding civilians hostage as cannon fodder/human shields. Expect to see the same tactics used in Taiwan (if not even more extreme than that).
While that might work when it is only a civil war, if US joins on the side of the rebels and make it into a war between nations, there is no chance that China would hesitate in flattening anything on the island, if what is at stake is America potentially taking over, its better to go completely scorched earth.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I think some lessons will simply not be applicable to the Taiwan scenario. In Taiwan, the PRC will have to engage into a sea invasion, and then there might be heavy city fighting in cities comparatively huge to those in Ukraine. Because of the conflict in Ukraine, they lost over 12 million people as refugees at this point, so right now a lot of their large cities will be mostly empty, and this will make the invasion a lot easier. This won't be the case in Taiwan since the people won't have anywhere to leave. As I fully expect China to completely encircle Taiwan.

What I think might be a good idea in the case of Taiwan is China investing into tiltrotor aircraft. This will basically vastly reduce the time required for putting the first wave into place, and reduce response time. So between using air power and drone strikes to control the air, and using tiltrotors for rapid troop insertions, you would then do a massive sea lift and conquer the place.

China also needs to consider some kind of vehicle for city fighting. The Russians had issues with the T-72 and T-80 not being to elevate their guns to fire on high rise buildings in Chechnya, and the PRC might have the same issues in Taiwan.
There wouldn't be any city fighting. PLA will enforce a blockade on the island and force a surrender.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think some lessons will simply not be applicable to the Taiwan scenario. In Taiwan, the PRC will have to engage into a sea invasion, and then there might be heavy city fighting in cities comparatively huge to those in Ukraine. Because of the conflict in Ukraine, they lost over 12 million people as refugees at this point, so right now a lot of their large cities will be mostly empty, and this will make the invasion a lot easier. This won't be the case in Taiwan since the people won't have anywhere to leave. As I fully expect China to completely encircle Taiwan.

What I think might be a good idea in the case of Taiwan is China investing into tiltrotor aircraft. This will basically vastly reduce the time required for putting the first wave into place, and reduce response time. So between using air power and drone strikes to control the air, and using tiltrotors for rapid troop insertions, you would then do a massive sea lift and conquer the place.

China also needs to consider some kind of vehicle for city fighting. The Russians had issues with the T-72 and T-80 not being to elevate their guns to fire on high rise buildings in Chechnya, and the PRC might have the same issues in Taiwan.
Gun drones for high rise buildings... A 15 kg payload drone can carry a modified infantry caliber assault rifle, hover right up to windows, and sweep a room.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Because of the conflict in Ukraine, they lost over 12 million people as refugees at this point, so right now a lot of their large cities will be mostly empty, and this will make the invasion a lot easier. This won't be the case in Taiwan since the people won't have anywhere to leave. As I fully expect China to completely encircle Taiwan.
That's an interesting point. You're assuming that there will be no warning until China suddenly attacks. But what if there's a slow drift towards a declaration of independence? If China makes credible threats, it might be able to trigger a wave of refugees. Even if the blockade comes suddenly, there should definitely be humanitarian corridors that can evacuate people during any blockade. Fewer young people will make the fight and subsequent pacification easier. That's the strategy used by Syria in the civil war and by Russia in Ukraine.

Actually, China should continue to encourage young people to study or work on the mainland to drain Taiwanese separatist resources and create ambassadors for China on the island

Any refugee who just wants to avoid death will probably return after. Those who irredeemably hate China and want to be westerners are not a loss and it's better if they don't return.
 

Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Now with lessons pertaining to Ukraine in particular

Lesson 1: Tanks are useless and too vulnerable.

Well, think we've all heard arguments and counter arguments to that countless time, so I wouldn't elaborate on this point too much. Tanks as a blunt instrument of breakthrough are indeed quite dead, Infantry Anti-tank weapons have advanced too much and became too common, infantry screens cannot and will not protect tanks against ATGM, this is simply not possible for rifleman to defend tanks against 2 guys hiding in the tree line 2 km away. I believe tanks nowadays can more accurately be described as firesupport platforms, which are obviously still useful.

Lesson 2: Artillery win wars

This isn't a kneejerk response to US' wars as it is conventional wisdom, this isn't wrong but it isn't the full story. Artillery is responsible for the majority of casualties in past wars as well as the present one in Ukraine. This is widely known and as a result, the Russian military is the most artillery heavy in the world, by all accounts, it fired an astronomically number of shells in the opening phase of the Ukraine war. So why is it that Russia have so little territorial gain to show for such an enormous display of firepower while being unable to silence Ukrainian artillery though counter battery fire?

IMO, this is due to the almost criminal neglect of Reconnaissance portion of Reconnaissance Strike Complex. We would frequently see the so called "Human wave attacks" appear in Western discourse, which are more correctly interpreted as reconnaissance through contact, where infantry units are being sent forward to initiate direct contact with defenders which are then identified and flattened with artillery. Needless to say, defenders have an inherent advantage and those infantry units took massive casualties, which is highly demoralizing and debilitating to BTGs which are short on infantry to begin with.

I suspect that most of the shells fired in the early wars are simply wasted, as artillery are ordered to pour fire on phantom targets that might or might not be there. Russian units lack the capability to accurately assess the strength and position of defenders outside of the fact that they were being fired upon. I found this to have a shocking resemblance to the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq's military is well-equipped with the latest foreign artillery pieces as Saddam, informed by conventional wisdom, overloaded his military with it. Yet territorial gains are slow to non existent as mechanized divisions are halted by Iranian militias as they waited for their artillery do the heavy lifting for them when fired upon. Again, I don't want to discount the fact that assaults' without indirect fire are extremely costly, but lack of low cost reconnaissance via drones have cost the Russians dearly as they lack the intel to leverage their artillery superiority.


Lesson 3: MALE Drones are wonder weapons at first, but becomes useless after air defenses come online.

MALE drones in this context specifically refers to large reconnaissance strike drones like the Bayraktar or larger. The popular narrative now is that success of MALE drones are short-lived and that they have limited value due to their vulnerability to air defense, their success at the start of the war are purely due to initial confusion in the Russian ranks.

I feel like the narrative have swung too far in the other direction, as this fail to take into account that Ukraine's SEAD capabilities are practically zero and Russia is the inheritor of the world's most comprehensive ground based air-defense systems. Pitting MALE drone against Soviet air-defense systems with hardly anything else in the air is not the recipe for continued success. Comparatively, the air defense systems of the United States and its allies are much less advanced and numerous. Correct me if I'm missing something, but US SHORAD appear to be comprised mostly of stingers on Humvees.

It is in my opinion that MALE drones would be the most decisive weapons in the land component of the reunification war as it significantly enhances reconnaissance and strike at a fraction of the cost of manned air craft, while exploiting the SHORAD gap that are often present in western air defense systems. The terrain of Taiwan is also highly complex where the mobility of mechanized formations is heavily constrained, target acquisition and destruction of backline support assets is unlikely via direct contact or regular artillery. Unlike Ukraine, who completely relies on external actors to supply them with a meager number of MALE drones, China is the world's largest industrial base who manufactured its own drone fleet. China can easily manufacture a large enough drone fleet which will drastically amplify air support and overwhelm collaborationist air-defense when working in tandem of PLAAF SEAD.
For a very rough and imprecise analogy I would liken MALE drones to CAS aircraft/attack helicopters to Early Iron weapons and Bronze weapons, where the quality of Bronze weapons is meaningless compared to easy mass manufacturing of Iron weapons(early iron weapons are worse than Bronze weapons), you can bang on about how much more range and payload a manned aircraft can have but 1 manned aircraft will never provide the intel and on demand strike capability of 10 drones. What is curious for the US is how the cost of their own drones have ballooned out of proportion, so much so that their drones are as expensive manned aircraft, in this regard China have a distinct advantage.
Your two posts are very comprehensive and detailed. You seems knowledgeable in term of military analyst. May I know who you are, sire, if you're not mind to tell us about yourself? I'm sorry if I'm impolite. But thanks for your comprehensive analyst. I learn a lot from you.
 

tch1972

Junior Member
Gun drones for high rise buildings... A 15 kg payload drone can carry a modified infantry caliber assault rifle, hover right up to windows, and sweep a room.

Close air support drones carrying GPMG and AGL. I haven't seen any of this in the market but i do believe it helps to provide sustainable fire support from a vantage point.

Heavy artillery fire means offensive infantry needs to keep a distance. Moving in after artillery barrage would take around 30 min depending on terrain and means of transport. This give the well entrenched OPFOR enough time to reorganise. But during this time there are close air support to suppress the enemy while the infantry moves in. Such drones will come in handy.

The mountaine range in Taiwan are of little strategic values. Raging a guerilla war in the mountains are simply a lost cause for Taiwanese resistance if any.

If war breaks out, most of the fighting will happen in cities and suburban coastal regions which is long and narrow. There are enough choke points to cut off and isolated enemy into small pockets.
 

Breadbox

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your two posts are very comprehensive and detailed. You seems knowledgeable in term of military analyst. May I know who you are, sire, if you're not mind to tell us about yourself? I'm sorry if I'm impolite. But thanks for your comprehensive analyst. I learn a lot from you.
Decent knowledge of basic military affairs and spending way too much time reading R/Warcollege and R/Credibledefense, the former is highly informative on historical conflicts and free from biased circlejerks while the latter is mostly speculative and contain some circlejerks. Alot of the terms that I use aren't very precise, but it is enough to get the point across.
 
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