Instead of just Upgrades, and about the future flankers

Chairman Hu · Oct 24, 2005

That really isnt that great to base it on the Su-27SKM, unless it has carnads, radar abilities around the Su-35BM (reason why we need to buy it) and better engines than the WS-10A, China NEEDS much better engine

btw, even though it doesnt belong in here, is China gonna upgrade the SKs to SKMs?

By the time the J-11B is finished, it will be obsolete compared to EU, USA and Russia

I just hope the radars and engines will hold the aircraft up in a good place...

trkl · Oct 24, 2005

I don't see any reason for PLAAF to buy Su-35BM. It won't fly untils 2007 at the earliest and China has gotten wary of funding Russian development projects as they often take longer than expected and don't always meet performance goals. The avionics don't really seem all that impressive, and I think that the j-11 is likely to have better avionics than Su-35BM by the time it comes out. China might have some interest in the engine, though you have to remember that the AL-41F1 is a different and less powerful engine than the AL-41 that is being developed for PAK-FA. The airframe is pretty similar to the standard Su-27 airframe (unlike the "old" Su-35 which had canards). I think that there is very little chance of China buying any.

MIGleader · Oct 24, 2005

trkl said:
I don't see any reason for PLAAF to buy Su-35BM. It won't fly untils 2007 at the earliest and China has gotten wary of funding Russian development projects as they often take longer than expected and don't always meet performance goals. The avionics don't really seem all that impressive, and I think that the j-11 is likely to have better avionics than Su-35BM by the time it comes out. China might have some interest in the engine, though you have to remember that the AL-41F1 is a different and less powerful engine than the AL-41 that is being developed for PAK-FA. The airframe is pretty similar to the standard Su-27 airframe (unlike the "old" Su-35 which had canards). I think that there is very little chance of China buying any.

sadly. the reason the al-41 f1 has less thrust is becaus the airframe cant handle it. its like trying to put a ws-10a on a j-7. if u read the article, it clearly states that the su-35bm can either feature canards or tvc.

as for avionics...the russians arent traditionally very good at it. but haveing seen the inside of the new migs, i think russian avionics have come a long way.

Chairman Hu · Oct 24, 2005

Agree to both

By the time J-11B comes out, Chinese avionics on that plane is gonna beat the Su-35BM, but it MIGHT finish earlier for China to have a few

and for the AL-41F engine, China isnt gonna just "copy" it ya know, China is gonna learn the concept and improve it, the AL-41F even with less thrust is gonna be a great leap for engine industry in China, concept-wise

I wonder if the J-11B is gonna have the AL-41F, itd be JUSt like the Su-37!

trkl · Oct 24, 2005

MIGleader said:
if u read the article, it clearly states that the su-35bm can either feature canards or tvc.

Which article? All the articles that I have seen say that Su-35BM does not have canards. It also make me wonder how useful the canards really are; if the latest and "most advnaced" flanker does not use canards, that seems to imply either that the canards did not hep much, or similar gains can be made through improving the fbw system instead.

MIGleader said:
as for avionics...the russians arent traditionally very good at it. but haveing seen the inside of the new migs, i think russian avionics have come a long way.

The Russians are improving but I think that the Chinese are improving even faster. Also, it looks like the Su-35BM will use the irbis radar, which franky does not seem that impressive. Apperantly it still uses semi-mechanical semi-pesa beam stearing, and the speculated stats are not that much beter than Bars'. The Phazatron Zhuk-msf seemd more impresive since it was a true pesa and the estimated stats seem better too. I wonder why it wasn't chosen instead?

tphuang · Oct 24, 2005

Chairman Hu said:
Agree to both

By the time J-11B comes out, Chinese avionics on that plane is gonna beat the Su-35BM, but it MIGHT finish earlier for China to have a few

and for the AL-41F engine, China isnt gonna just "copy" it ya know, China is gonna learn the concept and improve it, the AL-41F even with less thrust is gonna be a great leap for engine industry in China, concept-wise

I wonder if the J-11B is gonna have the AL-41F, itd be JUSt like the Su-37!

Tell me you are kidding. Where did you even get the idea that J-11B will be an air superiority fighter? Superior to what? According to all report, it will have the a2a capability of mkk series. J-11B should start joining service soon (like in 2006/7), because the test flights with WS-10A have already been done. Here is basically what J-11B is:
1. based on the airframe of 27 and mkk
2. using WS-10A as its engine. It won't use AL-41F1, because J-11B is supposed to be all domestic
3. With the extra thrust, it will be able to carry more payload, therefore, it will be better suited for attacking missions.
4. As for avionics, the cockpit should be similar in all Chinese planes now. It should be decent. We don't know about the jamming or anti-jamming capability of the Chinese avionics. Radar is the biggest issue here. KLJ-4 should be similar in capability to KLJ-3. From what I can see, the most advanced Chinese radars are not as good as the Russian ones. If they really are PAR like some people have claimed, then they will be better than I expected.

As for al-41F1, the reason it was developed was that it was easier to expand the thrust of AL-31F rather than going straight to the specs of AL-41F. From all specs, it looks quite impressive. And let's not forget, it's 3D TVC.

As for su-35BM, it doesn't have canard, but it has other features that makes it extremely manuverable. If Zhuk-mfe is offered with su-35bm, then that would definitely be a really good radar.

MIGleader · Oct 24, 2005

tphuang said:
Tell me you are kidding. Where did you even get the idea that J-11B will be an air superiority fighter? Superior to what? According to all report, it will have the a2a capability of mkk series. J-11B should start joining service soon (like in 2006/7), because the test flights with WS-10A have already been done. Here is basically what J-11B is:
1. based on the airframe of 27 and mkk
2. using WS-10A as its engine. It won't use AL-41F1, because J-11B is supposed to be all domestic
3. With the extra thrust, it will be able to carry more payload, therefore, it will be better suited for attacking missions.
4. As for avionics, the cockpit should be similar in all Chinese planes now. It should be decent. We don't know about the jamming or anti-jamming capability of the Chinese avionics. Radar is the biggest issue here. KLJ-4 should be similar in capability to KLJ-3. From what I can see, the most advanced Chinese radars are not as good as the Russian ones. If they really are PAR like some people have claimed, then they will be better than I expected.

As for al-41F1, the reason it was developed was that it was easier to expand the thrust of AL-31F rather than going straight to the specs of AL-41F. From all specs, it looks quite impressive. And let's not forget, it's 3D TVC.

As for su-35BM, it doesn't have canard, but it has other features that makes it extremely manuverable. If Zhuk-mfe is offered with su-35bm, then that would definitely be a really good radar.

based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

tphuang · Oct 24, 2005

MIGleader said:
based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

here is the problem facing J-11B, it's radar is not going to be better than J-10's radar, but it's RCS is a lot bigger. As for frame, yes it is based on sk, but apparently SAC has taken the knowledge of examining mkk and improved 11B so that it's somewhere in the middle.

trkl · Oct 24, 2005

MIGleader said:
based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

Well, the newest J-11 pics do show 12 hardpoints like Su-30mkk, rather than 10 like on the Su-30sk. It is also said to have a much higher % of composits than the Su-27sk.

I have not seen any specs for the klj-4, but I think it should compare well with the latest Russian radars. If you compare the klj-3 with N011M Bars, they have almost identicle performance. Klj-4 is supposed to be a larger, more powerful derivative of klj-3, so we can expect klj-4>klj-3 and therefore klj-4>Bars.

tphuang · Oct 24, 2005

trkl said:
Well, the newest J-11 pics do show 12 hardpoints like Su-30mkk, rather than 10 like on the Su-30sk. It is also said to have a much higher % of composits than the Su-27sk.

I have not seen any specs for the klj-4, but I think it should compare well with the latest Russian radars. If you compare the klj-3 with N011M Bars, they have almost identicle performance. Klj-4 is supposed to be a larger, more powerful derivative of klj-3, so we can expect klj-4>klj-3 and therefore klj-4>Bars.

KLJ-3 has been developing for a long time. It was developed in 1997 and has been upgrading steadily since. KLJ-4 is basically derived from KLJ-3 to fit J-11. It's assumed by most analysts to have similar performances. KLJ-3 is generally considered to be the best Chinese A2A radar.

Instead of just Upgrades, and about the future flankers

Chairman Hu

Banned Idiot

trkl

New Member

MIGleader

Banned Idiot

Chairman Hu

Banned Idiot

trkl

New Member

tphuang

Lieutenant General

MIGleader

Banned Idiot

tphuang

Lieutenant General

trkl

New Member

tphuang

Lieutenant General