Instead of just Upgrades, and about the future flankers

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
better than mkk? the only advantage an mkk has over a su-27 inb a2a is the r-77, and a number of j-11s have already been modified to carry r-77.

china is definitly planning to fit the sd-10 on the plane and stop using so many russian missles.

hu, the j-11b is likely an air superiority fighter with a secondary attack role, similar to the mig-29. china may already be developing a dedicated attacker based on the su-32/34.

rankings:
mkk2
mkk
j-11b
j-11a with r-77
j-10
su-27
yeah, J-10 pretty much has mkk beat on every category in a2a combat.
better manuverability
better a2a radar
smaller RCS
better AAM (SD-10 over R-77)

The only thing J-10 trails in is payload and range. Those are not that critical for a2a combat. That's why you see China is stationing the first J-10 regiment near India. It knows su-30mkks can handle the mkis.

As for su-32/34, it's on one of the recent Kanwa articles that China is trying to develop an upgraded attacker (JH-8 I guess?) with su-32/34's capability.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
yeah, J-10 pretty much has mkk beat on every category in a2a combat.
better manuverability
better a2a radar
smaller RCS
better AAM (SD-10 over R-77)

The only thing J-10 trails in is payload and range. Those are not that critical for a2a combat. That's why you see China is stationing the first J-10 regiment near India. It knows su-30mkks can handle the mkis.

As for su-32/34, it's on one of the recent Kanwa articles that China is trying to develop an upgraded attacker (JH-8 I guess?) with su-32/34's capability.

the j-10 is nto proven to have more manuverability than flankers. it is merely claimed by chengdu, which made the j-10. better a2a radar? the mkk can trak 10, the j-10 can trak 2. the new radar is not out yet, and neither is pl-12

the mkis will kick the chinese af ass unless china can get soemthing equally advanced or more(the su-35bm!)
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
the j-10 is nto proven to have more manuverability than flankers. it is merely claimed by chengdu, which made the j-10. better a2a radar? the mkk can trak 10, the j-10 can trak 2. the new radar is not out yet, and neither is pl-12

the mkis will kick the chinese af ass unless china can get soemthing equally advanced or more(the su-35bm!)
That claim was made by people who saw J-10 fight against su-30mkk and by plaaf officials and published on a widely read Chinese military aviation magazine.

As for radar, J-10 tracks 15/engages 6. mkk tracks 10/engages 4.

think about it this way:
J-10 beat su-27 5:0 in plaaf's own internal mock fights in spite of the fact that su-27 pilots have been flying their planes for much longer than the J-10 pilots. I'm pretty sure J-10 pilots were not equipped with SD-10 missiles yet in those fights.
 

trkl

New Member
tphuang said:
As for su-32/34, it's on one of the recent Kanwa articles that China is trying to develop an upgraded attacker (JH-8 I guess?) with su-32/34's capability.

I know that there is a JH-7b being developed, which is supposed to be a pretty major upgrade over the jh-7a. Could this be the project Kanwa was talking about?

MIGleader said:
the j-10 is nto proven to have more manuverability than flankers. it is merely claimed by chengdu, which made the j-10. better a2a radar? the mkk can trak 10, the j-10 can trak 2. the new radar is not out yet, and neither is pl-12

When the klj-3 was first publically displayed, it was claimed to have 150km range, and capability to track 15 and engage 4. The next time it was displayed it claimd to be able to engage 6-8 due to a software upgrade. In either case, it should be better than the mkk radar, which really isn't that good.
 

tphuang

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trkl said:
I know that there is a JH-7b being developed, which is supposed to be a pretty major upgrade over the jh-7a. Could this be the project Kanwa was talking about?
yeah, my bad. You are right, it's JH-7B
When the klj-3 was first publically displayed, it was claimed to have 150km range, and capability to track 15 and engage 4. The next time it was displayed it claimd to be able to engage 6-8 due to a software upgrade. In either case, it should be better than the mkk radar, which really isn't that good.
yeah, KLJ-3 went through several upgrades. It was first developed in 1997 and is still developing. Who knows, maybe the current version is already PAR. That would be much better than N001VE's radar, which isn't even SAR.
 

sino52C

New Member
I think the JH-7B may be a SU-24 at best. It will not match the better fighter and aerodynamic characteristics of the SU-32/34 series.

A chinese SU-32/34 may be a good option. It can match and beat anything in Japan, Taiwan, India, and even the US in certain aspects. Only problem would be cost, I'm not sure whether I want to see 3-4 JH-7s vs. a single SU-34.
 

trkl

New Member
sino52C said:
I think the JH-7B may be a SU-24 at best. It will not match the better fighter and aerodynamic characteristics of the SU-32/34 series.

I think you are underestimating the jh-7b. The upgrade from jh-7 to jh-7a was pretty big, jh-7 had 6.5 tons of payload at most while fbc-1m (downgraded export version of jh-7a) has a payload of 9 tons. I have been hearing that the jh-7b is supposed to be an even bigger upgrade over the jh-7a than the jh-7a was over the jh-7. Apparently jh-7b features more advanced materials and has reduced rcs. I think we should wait and see what JH-7b actually looks like before we assume that it is a terrible aircraft.
 

tphuang

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trkl said:
I think you are underestimating the jh-7b. The upgrade from jh-7 to jh-7a was pretty big, jh-7 had 6.5 tons of payload at most while fbc-1m (downgraded export version of jh-7a) has a payload of 9 tons. I have been hearing that the jh-7b is supposed to be an even bigger upgrade over the jh-7a than the jh-7a was over the jh-7. Apparently jh-7b features more advanced materials and has reduced rcs. I think we should wait and see what JH-7b actually looks like before we assume that it is a terrible aircraft.
the main issue with JH-7A is still it's thrust. It is using a turbofan engine, but the thrust is just not up there. I'm guessing JH-7A is supposed to match the performance of su-24. I'm sure it does, but the question is which version of su-24?

As for JH-7B, it is designed to be as good as su-34. Who knows if it will get there. I personally think China should get some su-34s if the Russians are willing to sell them to us. I doubt it, but let's wait a couple of years. They are already offering us su-33 and su-35bm, so the fullbacks can't be that far away.

That article

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Kanwa’s sources indicate that China has started seriously studying the structure of Russian Su32 fighter-bomber. The video footage released by China’s No.1 Aviation Group revealed that China has manufactured an aircraft model strikingly similar to Su32. Structural testing is now under way. As for the background of this fighter-bomber development, China has already started the production of JH7A. But JH7A after all belongs to the technology and the design concept of 1970s. Thus, the R&D of post-JH7A is possible.

Just for reference, there are 4 JH-7/7A regiments in service, 3 are in PLAN, 1 in PLAAF



If that's not enough to swallow, check this:
Is This New?

中俄联合造飞豹III性能超SU-34

中国最新型的战斗轰炸机“飞豹―III”型是在原机型的基础上,换装了一对和我国歼―11战斗机一样的仿俄AL―31F小涵道比涡扇发动机,最大推力77千牛,加力推力为122.5千牛,从以前的最高速度 1.8Mach增加到2.2Mach,所以新型机才改大了进气口;同时,新型机增加了空中加油系统,作战半径:从原本的1650公里增加到2500公里(两次加油),最大航程:3300公里增加到5600公里(两次加油),主要武器:两门23mm机炮,12个外挂点。载弹量7000Kg,可挂载两枚近程空对空导弹PL――5B、四枚射程一百二十公里的鹰击八号二型(C――802)
反舰导弹,在对地攻击作战方面,则可携带空对地巡航导弹和航空炸弹,或带两枚“航空核炸弹”。
  
FB-2000远程重型歼击轰炸机是中国空军明智的选择

  随着美国对中国围追堵截日趋平凡,中国领导人感到了战争的压力。为了维护国家的主权和领土完整,中国军方领导层明确提出了:“做好打赢局部战争的必要准备,建立一支攻防兼备的空中武装力量,拒敌于国门之外,歼敌于千里之外。”的作战指导思想。

  未来战争中,攻击是最好的防备。而担任空中攻击任务的轰炸机正好是中国空中武装力量最薄弱环节。军委领导痛下决囊?⒄姑嫦?1世纪新型轰炸机,从根本上全面提高中国的空中打击力量,以适应未来战争的需要。

  选择什么样的机型作为新一代主力轰炸机?成为当时上至军委领导,下至飞行员和设计人员共同关心的焦点。其间各部门提出了数十种意见和方案。有提出从乌克兰等国购买现役轰炸机的“短平快”方案;有提出完全独立自主研发的“自主派”方案;也有提出仿制前苏联的TU-26的“仿制派”等方案。

  “短平快”购买方案,不能从根本上提高中国的整体空中打击力量。“自主派”研发方案,虽然研发机构全力支持,但生产工厂对完全自主开发的产品能否成功持保留态度。“仿制派”是一个研发机构和工厂都可接受的方案,但军方对仿制的机型是否能够满足未来战争的需要却持怀疑态度。

  例如,当年研发机构曾拿出过J-9等多个研发的战机项目。但是,工厂却因没有参照的样机和资料等原因不愿承接。工厂要求军方保证负担全部开发费用和承包生产出来的产品。工厂担心一旦因设计上的缺陷使战机性能达不到设计要求,产品没人要的话,十余万人的工厂在市场经济的浪潮下怎样生存?工厂希望仿制已搞到样机和图纸的前苏联MIG-23战机,保证两年左右样机开发成功。而军方认为MIG-23已经落伍,再投入巨大力量仿制不合时宜。而研制军方需要的战机,工厂又没把握。结果导致一系列当时设计较为先进的战机方案流产。

  当年,中国没有具有实际作战能力的战术轰炸机,更缺乏具有远程作战能力的战略轰炸机。中国的国力有限,航空工业基础薄弱,只能优先发展一种新型轰炸机。究竟选择战术还是战略轰炸机?又是一个难以选择的问题?

  军委领导为了避免重蹈覆辙,明确提出“先进,实用,稳妥,经济”的八字方针。综合各种因素后将未来新一代轰炸机定位于:远程/重型/歼击-轰炸机。要求具有未来歼击机(战斗机)的自卫能力和格斗能力;具有远程攻击能力;具有大载弹量攻击能力;制造难度小和价格适宜,可大量装备部队的歼击/轰炸两用(一机多型)战机。

  为了解决制造难度小和保障成功性。军方将实行了“自主开发”和“引进+联合开发”两条腿走路的万全之策。当时在中国多个机构有多个可行性方案正在紧张进行。时逢中国意外从乌克兰和俄罗斯获得很多正在寻找饭碗的航空专家。其中有前苏联时期下马的T-4MS轰炸机开发人员和参加研制SU-34歼击轰炸机的人员。拿出了较为可行的“T-4MS缩小型”方案和“SU-34放大型”方案。

  T-4MS是前苏联“苏霍伊设计局”设计的新一代战略轰炸机。而SU-34又是“苏霍伊设计局”在SU-27基础上开发(并由SU-32FN改进而来)的一种重型歼击- 轰炸机。中国军方看中了SU-34的先进的突防和生存能力,又看中了T-4MS的远程作战能力和巨大的载弹能力。最终选择了取长补短的“T-4MS+SU -34二者结合型”方案。其研发代号为FB-2000型。

  由于美国和俄罗斯将未来战机的方向确定为具有低空超音速隐形突防能力上。实际上已经解密和放弃(减少生产数量)现已公布的美国F-22和俄罗斯的SU-34及S-37等战机.再加上当时俄罗斯在国内经济濒临破产的情况下,为了渡过暂时的难关,俄罗斯希望加入中国新一代FB-2000的开发项目中。由于这两款机均是由苏霍伊设计局开发的,再加上T-4MS和SU-34的样机保存完好,特别是在发动机和火控系统方面中国也难以在短期内有较大的突破。为了确保FB-2000的成功性,中国同俄罗斯(包括部分乌克兰机构)经过多年艰苦谈判,在中俄最高领导的干预下,达成了联合开发FB-2000的合作协议。

FB-2000是中国为了完成向攻防兼备型空军的需要,为了弥补中国空军缺乏远程攻击能力,缺乏新型轰炸机,缺乏加油机和缺乏海外空军基地等薄弱环节,而提出的一种具有远程轰炸能力又具有自我防卫能力的远程对地对海双重多用途重型战斗轰炸机(并非战略轰炸机,只能算轻型战术轰炸机)。在俄罗斯拉中国联合开发SU-34时,中国针对俄罗斯苏霍伊经济困境,急需中国在SU-27和SU-30等战机的定单和新项目开发费用等特殊情况下,提出了联合开发FB-2000方案,中国承担主要研发费用,但FB-2000 的知识产权属于中国(而不是向SU-27和SU-30只得到授权组装)。FB-2000比SU-30和SU-34航程更远,载弹量更大,而且具有机内载弹能力,隐形突防能力和2倍以上超音速巡航能力。目前该项目进展顺利。
 
Last edited:

Chairman Hu

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
中俄联合造飞豹III性能超SU-34

中国最新型的战斗轰炸机“飞豹―IIIâ€型是在原机型的基础上,换装了一对和我国歼―11战斗机一样的仿俄AL―31F小涵道比涡扇发动机,最大推力77千牛,加力推力为122.5千牛,从以前的最高速度 1.8Mach增加到2.2Mach,所以新型机才改大了进气口;同时,新型机增加了空中加油系统,作战半径:从原本的1650公里增加到2500公里(两次加油),最大航程:3300公里增加到5600公里(两次加油),主要武器:两门23mm机炮,12个外挂点。载弹量7000Kg,可挂载两枚近程空对空导弹PL――5B、四枚射程一百二十公里的鹰击八号二型(C――802)
反舰导弹,在对地攻击作战方面,则可携带空对地巡航导弹和航空炸弹,或带两枚“航空核炸弹â€。
  
FB-2000远程重型歼击轰炸机是中国空军明智的选择

  随着美国对中国围追堵截日趋平凡,中国领导人感到了战争的压力。为了维护国家的主权和领土完整,中国军方领导层明确提出了:“做好打赢局部战争的必要准备,建立一支攻防兼备的空中武装力量,拒敌于国门之外,歼敌于千里之外。â€的作战指导思想。

  未来战争中,攻击是最好的防备。而担任空中攻击任务的轰炸机正好是中国空中武装力量最薄弱环节。军委领导痛下决囊?⒄姑嫦?1世纪新型轰炸机,从根本上全面提高中国的空中打击力量,以适应未来战争的需要。

  选择什么样的机型作为新一代主力轰炸机?成为当时上至军委领导,下至飞行员和设计人员共同关心的焦点。其间各部门提出了数十种意见和方案。有提出从乌克兰等国购买现役轰炸机的“短平快â€方案;有提出完全独立自主研发的“自主派â€方案;也有提出仿制前苏联的TU-26的“仿制派â€等方案。

  “短平快â€购买方案,不能从根本上提高中国的整体空中打击力量。“自主派â€研发方案,虽然研发机构全力支持,但生产工厂对完全自主开发的产品能否成功持保留态度。“仿制派â€是一个研发机构和工厂都可接受的方案,但军方对仿制的机型是否能够满足未来战争的需要却持怀疑态度。

  例如,当年研发机构曾拿出过J-9等多个研发的战机项目。但是,工厂却因没有参照的样机和资料等原因不愿承接。工厂要求军方保证负担全部开发费用和承包生产出来的产品。工厂担心一旦因设计上的缺陷使战机性能达不到设计要求,产品没人要的话,十余万人的工厂在市场经济的浪潮下怎样生存?工厂希望仿制已搞到样机和图纸的前苏联MIG-23战机,保证两年左右样机开发成功。而军方认为MIG-23已经落伍,再投入巨大力量仿制不合时宜。而研制军方需要的战机,工厂又没把握。结果导致一系列当时设计较为先进的战机方案流产。

  当年,中国没有具有实际作战能力的战术轰炸机,更缺乏具有远程作战能力的战略轰炸机。中国的国力有限,航空工业基础薄弱,只能优先发展一种新型轰炸机。究竟选择战术还是战略轰炸机?又是一个难以选择的问题?

  军委领导为了避免重蹈覆辙,明确提出“先进,实用,稳妥,经济â€的八字方针。综合各种因素后将未来新一代轰炸机定位于:远程/重型/歼击-轰炸机。要求具有未来歼击机(战斗机)的自卫能力和格斗能力;具有远程攻击能力;具有大载弹量攻击能力;制造难度小和价格适宜,可大量装备部队的歼击/轰炸两用(一机多型)战机。

  为了解决制造难度小和保障成功性。军方将实行了“自主开发â€和“引进+联合开发â€两条腿走路的万全之策。当时在中国多个机构有多个可行性方案正在紧张进行。时逢中国意外从乌克兰和俄罗斯获得很多正在寻找饭碗的航空专家。其中有前苏联时期下马的T-4MS轰炸机开发人员和参加研制SU-34歼击轰炸机的人员。拿出了较为可行的“T-4MS缩小型â€方案和“SU-34放大型â€方案。

  T-4MS是前苏联“苏霍伊设计局â€设计的新一代战略轰炸机。而SU-34又是“苏霍伊设计局â€在SU-27基础上开发(并由SU-32FN改进而来)的一种重型歼击- 轰炸机。中国军方看中了SU-34的先进的突防和生存能力,又看中了T-4MS的远程作战能力和巨大的载弹能力。最终选择了取长补短的“T-4MS+SU -34二者结合型â€方案。其研发代号为FB-2000型。

  由于美国和俄罗斯将未来战机的方向确定为具有低空超音速隐形突防能力上。实际上已经解密和放弃(减少生产数量)现已公布的美国F-22和俄罗斯的SU-34及S-37等战机.再加上当时俄罗斯在国内经济濒临破产的情况下,为了渡过暂时的难关,俄罗斯希望加入中国新一代FB-2000的开发项目中。由于这两款机均是由苏霍伊设计局开发的,再加上T-4MS和SU-34的样机保存完好,特别是在发动机和火控系统方面中国也难以在短期内有较大的突破。为了确保FB-2000的成功性,中国同俄罗斯(包括部分乌克兰机构)经过多年艰苦谈判,在中俄最高领导的干预下,达成了联合开发FB-2000的合作协议。

FB-2000是中国为了完成向攻防兼备型空军的需要,为了弥补中国空军缺乏远程攻击能力,缺乏新型轰炸机,缺乏加油机和缺乏海外空军基地等薄弱环节,而提出的一种具有远程轰炸能力又具有自我防卫能力的远程对地对海双重多用途重型战斗轰炸机(并非战略轰炸机,只能算轻型战术轰炸机)。在俄罗斯拉中国联合开发SU-34时,中国针对俄罗斯苏霍伊经济困境,急需中国在SU-27和SU-30等战机的定单和新项目开发费用等特殊情况下,提出了联合开发FB-2000方案,中国承担主要研发费用,但FB-2000 的知识产权属于中国(而不是向SU-27和SU-30只得到授权组装)。FB-2000比SU-30和SU-34航程更远,载弹量更大,而且具有机内载弹能力,隐形突防能力和2倍以上超音速巡航能力。目前该项目进展顺利。
1.) Whats the link for this?
2.) If the JH-7B can carry 9+ ton in payload, then that IS quite of an upgrade from the original version, but thrust is still the biggest problem, China WILL solve that, and btw, the divisions of JH-7B is stilling using the cruddy RR engines?
3.) If the Jian-10 can beat the 30MKK and the 27SK, there is NO point for China to base the Jian-11B on those the models, since the J-10 can do better and it is almost finalized, carnads and radar isnt gonna automatically inprove the plane, China needs a better frame to base it on, although the SKM is our best lead (since the mockup model carried anti-ship missiles), and Russia most likely NOT let China base it on the Su-35, China needs to pull something out of her hat to pull off this one, I mean, even the US is getting the JSF by 2010, TVC might be an option, but I dont think itz likely, btw, is there a plane that can match the MKI move for move?

tphuang said:
“飞豹―IIIâ€
JH-7B... whoa 9ton+ in payload, there really isnt a pont for China do built a version similiar to the Su-34 based on the new J-11B's, just give the JH-7B better radars and tracking systems
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
trkl said:
I think you are underestimating the jh-7b. The upgrade from jh-7 to jh-7a was pretty big, jh-7 had 6.5 tons of payload at most while fbc-1m (downgraded export version of jh-7a) has a payload of 9 tons. I have been hearing that the jh-7b is supposed to be an even bigger upgrade over the jh-7a than the jh-7a was over the jh-7. Apparently jh-7b features more advanced materials and has reduced rcs. I think we should wait and see what JH-7b actually looks like before we assume that it is a terrible aircraft.

the original jh-7 could only handle five tons cause they used hand-me-down speys. the ws-9 supposedly had a small-medium increase in weight carrying ability, but 9 tons is redicoulous. the jh-7b mya be able to do 9 tons. a also hope the chinese can fit a close range ground attack radar on and armor the cocpit. anyone got a good site for jh-7b development?
 
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