Instead of just Upgrades, and about the future flankers

trkl

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The switch from speys to WS-9 wasn't the only change between JH-7 and JH-7a. There were also significant changes to the airframe which have made it lighter and increased the number of hardpoints. 9,000kg may seem rediculous, but that is what the manufacturer of the aircraft says that FBC-1m can carry.

I remember reading a pretty good article on the JH-7/a/b development, but I can't find it now.
 

tphuang

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trkl said:
The switch from speys to WS-9 wasn't the only change between JH-7 and JH-7a. There were also significant changes to the airframe which have made it lighter and increased the number of hardpoints. 9,000kg may seem rediculous, but that is what the manufacturer of the aircraft says that FBC-1m can carry.

I remember reading a pretty good article on the JH-7/a/b development, but I can't find it now.
I believe the current payload for JH-7A is 6.5 tonne. I doubt it can do better than that when each WS-9 only has 10 kN of thrust. The change in airframe helped, but it's not that significant.

The idea with JH-7B is that it will be using AL-31F (hopefully WS-10A in the future) to power it, so greater thrust.

I found that article on CDF, the other guy didn't post a link, so I don't know where it's from.

As I've said before, J-10 is finished, it has one operational regiment and another regiment in FTTC. It's J-11B that is not finished. I personally think J-11B is needed, because otherwise SAC would still be producing J-8F all day. I can't stand that thought. While SAC has its connections with plaaf, it will be able to produce all the garbage that it has been producing for the last 50 years.

I'm not sure, I get a feeling if China does buy su-35, it will be involved quite a bit in the structure of su-35, even if it doesn't get ToT. Considering J-11B has incorporated certain things from mkk, I figure it would keep on incorporating things from any new flanker that it sees. I personally think Russia learnt its lesson from the indigenization of su-27 and will not give China ToT ever again.

As for skm, it's supposed to be at the same level as mkk, but has that pero chip that makes the radar PAR.
 

tphuang

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I stand corrected, this article sorts of says FBC-1m will be able to carry 9 tonne

  最新一期简氏防卫周刊详细报导了中国空军服役的最新型JH7A改良型歼击轰炸机的细节。同时首次公开了亚洲特派员平可夫发自杭州的确认图片。图片显示一架JH7A低空进场降落。

  简氏防卫周刊声称在杭州的空军28强击机师开始进行例行双机编队训练﹐飞机多数没有携带武器。

  平可夫报导声称首批装备空军的JH7A应该使用了国产的WS9涡轮风扇发动机﹐这种来源以于SPAY MK202技术的发动机从2002年开始实现国产化﹐迄今为止以年产30台左右的速度生产﹐中国航空工业界的消息来源告诉JDW声称他们计划把生产速度增加一倍﹐达到年产60台的标准﹐但是若干子系统的生产仍然出现问题因而无法跟上组装进度。

  空军版JH7A删去了翼刀﹐拥有11个挂架﹐ 在1998年珠海航空展上﹐西安飞机公司的消息来源声称改良之后的JH7A将配备JL10A多功能火控雷达﹐雷达上视搜索距离达到80公里﹐下视搜索距离 54 公里﹐JL10A由607 研究所研制﹐X波段﹐具有11 种工作模式﹐可以同时跟踪4个空中目标。上视跟踪距离40公里﹐下视跟踪距离 32公里。607所还为JH7A研制了Blue-Sky低空导航吊仓。Blue-Sky的地形追踪间隙高度60-400米﹐地形追踪雷达探测距离15公里 ﹐前视红外探测距离10公里﹐重量200公斤﹐可以使JH7A以时速900公里﹐进行60米低空的地形跟踪飞行。但是目前阶段JH7A似乎没有装备低空导航吊舱。JH7A的后座舱安装了3台多功能显示器﹐前座舱为两台多功能显示器。。

  在武器系统方面﹐JH7A可以整合中国和俄罗斯生产的精确制导武器。中国获得了俄式27N激光制导炸弹寻的器﹐并且自己生产俄式激光制导炸弹。YJ91/Kh31P反辐射导弹也在在中国生产﹐此外﹐一种类似 Kh29T那样的电视制导炸弹寻的器已经在成都完成开发﹐部份精确打击武器可能还在处于最后开发阶段﹐因此目前阶段的训练主要侧重在操纵﹑编队﹑仪俵等。空对空导弹可能会统一换装空军已经大量使用的PL8。

  2003年在巴黎航空展上展出了JH7A的出口模型FBC1M﹐挂架由7个增加到9个﹐最终达到11个﹐载重量由JH7的6.5吨增加到9吨。中国的航空机械设计人员如此表示﹐JDW获悉西安飞机公司还在进一步改良JH7A歼击轰炸机﹐使其过渡到JH7B的水平。



more on J-11B

I personally think some of the arguments here are a little outrageous. There is no way J-11B can be produced at 2/3 the cost of J-10. This person sounds like a big supporter of J-11B, but even he said that J-11B at best can match J-10. Other than that, the stuff on J-11B still based on su-27sk is correct. That's why I say that we don't put too much hope on this plane.
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  歼11战机工程经历了三个阶段:第一阶段购买数架俄造苏27SK战机;第二阶段引进生产线和散件组装数架苏27SK战机(即歼11);自主研制、升级、改进苏27SK战机(即歼11B)。歼11B战机被定位为“打赢未来高科技条件下局部战争的重点型号”,“是党中央、国务院和中央军委的重大决策”,是党和国家赋予沈飞的“崇高历史使命”。随着一系列技术瓶颈的成功突破,歼11B的国产化水平不断提高,其性能已远远超过其原型机苏27SK,现已进入加速生产的“黄金时代”。当人们还在争论哪一款战机将成为21世纪前30年中国空中力量的主力战机时,歼11B已稳坐这“第一把交椅”!理由有二:其一,歼11B战机做为国家花大气力培植起来的重点工程,目标是完全的国产化,该项计划持续到2020年;其二,歼11B的价格比歼10便宜许多,据说还不到歼10的三分之二,且歼11B技术成熟,性能并不输了歼10,一些新的技术也可以不断应用于歼11B的升级改造,更有利于大量生产、列装。

  那么,网友们自然要问:歼11B的性能究竟如何呢?

  业内人士评价一架战机的性能有“三分”之说:一分为机体——气动外形,一分为航电系统(武器系统尚在其次),一分为飞机的“心脏”——航空发动机。苏27的机动性能是尽人皆知、闻名天下的,这首先得益于其优秀的气动外形,加上中国在现代战机气动方面多年的心得、经验,而且大量应用了包括钛合金在内的新型材料,相信新出炉的歼11B机动性能更胜一筹。中国军工对原型机的航电设备动了更大的手术,全新设计研制的综合航电系统居于国内领先,三位一体的 PD雷达、光电雷达、头盔瞄准系统协同工作,大大提高了超视距空战能力,更为有意义的是摆脱了原型机在武器选择上(单一的空战能力和俄式装备)的局限性,综合战力得到极大提高。“心脏病”是国产战机的通病,歼11B上原先的AL—31F是否被更换为国产化型号,这一点贝贝不得而知,但中国军工对AL— 31F做了改造却是不争的事实,请看《中国航空报》的相关报道:

  “马健总师,负责着重点型号某新型发动机的科研试飞工作,工作的难度超出他的想象。然而,不管多艰难,他都时刻以共产党员的坚强和刚毅顽强拼搏着,常为解决一个技术难题,连续昼夜作战。在排除某新型发动机,空中经常出现异常响声的故障攻关中,马健和王艳平绞尽脑汁,寻找突破口。他们认真仔细分析发动机在空中所出现20多次异常响声的数据曲线,一条线一条线的排查,一个点一个点的分析。经过了十多个昼夜的反复琢磨,通过与院内外技术专家和参研单位的会诊,终于找到了问题产生的原因,并提出了科学合理的改进措施。”最近在国产航空发动机领域捷报频传,贝贝坚信在不久的将来性能优异的国产航空发动机一定会使中国战机如虎添翼的。

  最近一期的《航空世界》杂志对歼11B作了图文报道,题目是《宝剑锋从磨砺出》,文中写到: “作为我国空军现役的主力战机,某型战斗机的国产化一直是国人关注的重点。经过近10年的不懈技术探索和试验,该机的国产化终于迎来了一个新里程碑。国产化的过程,实际就是对该机进行升级改进和本土化的过程,机载航电、武器、火控系统均改进为国产装备,提高了系统的维护必以及兼容性,同时也大大提高了飞机的产量。”这是对中国歼11B战机最好的总结!
 
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trkl

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tphuang said:
As for skm, it's supposed to be at the same level as mkk, but has that pero chip that makes the radar PAR.

The Su-27smk is based on the Su-27sm, which is the most advanced version of flanker that Russia's own airforce is getting. However, the smk is actually better and more advanced than the sm, since skm has pero and the Russians decided that pero was too expensive for them to get. Basically what this means is that Russia is is finally offering its best technology to China in the hopes of regaining part of the Chinese fighter market.

It will be interesting to see what the Chinese do. If they do buy the smk, then I think there is a good chance that they will buy the Su-35bm as well. However if they don't buy the smk, then it would indicate that Sukhoi has lost the Chinese market and they probably won't be able to sell any more fighters to China(or at least not until PAK-FA).
 

tphuang

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trkl said:
The Su-27smk is based on the Su-27sm, which is the most advanced version of flanker that Russia's own airforce is getting. However, the smk is actually better and more advanced than the sm, since skm has pero and the Russians decided that pero was too expensive for them to get. Basically what this means is that Russia is is finally offering its best technology to China in the hopes of regaining part of the Chinese fighter market.

It will be interesting to see what the Chinese do. If they do buy the smk, then I think there is a good chance that they will buy the Su-35bm as well. However if they don't buy the smk, then it would indicate that Sukhoi has lost the Chinese market and they probably won't be able to sell any more fighters to China(or at least not until PAK-FA).
I read about that too, it seemed like the Russians were getting this new chip on their n011vep radar and could technically call it PAR, but a further upgrade (the pero chip) was offered to plaaf to make it "more of a PAR"? It's interesting that the su-30mkks are not getting that upgrade.

Either way, if they were actually even semi-interested in getting su-27sm update (which really is just su-30mkk single seated), then they should be really interested in the bm. My current question is still about how developed bm is.

Anyhow, the only flanker I think China is getting for sure is the su-33. It was said that Cao Gangchuan had a lot of discussions with the Russians about getting these planes. I took a look at the su-33m. They seemed to be just foldable versions of su-30mkk3 that can lift off from an AC.

A little on Pero:
Pero系统


对N001V雷达的进一步发展按计划将在今年实施,力争在每个俄罗斯空军的飞行中队至少配备1到2架飞机。新雷达将安装称为Pero(羽毛)的相控阵天线,具有同时跟踪15个目标、同时接战8个目标的能力,并将显著提高对目标的跟踪距离。由于配备了TKS-2 (R098)加密数据链,多达16架的Su-27战斗机能被整合成一个集群使用。Pero雷达能使长机在较远的距离上跟踪较多的目标,并把目标信息传递给其他战斗机,从而使它们能隐蔽接敌。
Pero天线由Tikhomirov NIIP设计局和Ryazan GRPZ设计和生产,具有与现有机电卡塞格伦型N001-01天线相同的机电界面和电力消耗,但是仅重85公斤,节省了30公斤重量。根据NIIP的数据,Pero天线的价格与现有天线相当,但具备大幅提高的性能。
由于更换了雷达天线,现有Ts100处理器及其相关系统将被用于新雷达,此举可节省120公斤的重量。然而,将相关软件编译成C++代码的过程需要大约12个月,所以熊猫计划的终极雷达型号将不会早于2005年底出现

track 15, engage 8, can datalink 16 su-27
 
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MIGleader

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the russians planned to upgrade six su-27s to skm standard in 06. its phase one of the su-35 upgrade plan bm.

i thought the chiense had deemed it to costly to refit the jh-7 with al-31. isnt it a bit to powerful? ws-13 or rd-93(with no smoke!) is better.
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
the russians planned to upgrade six su-27s to skm standard in 06. its phase one of the su-35 upgrade plan bm.

i thought the chiense had deemed it to costly to refit the jh-7 with al-31. isnt it a bit to powerful? ws-13 or rd-93(with no smoke!) is better.
I personally think upgrading to su-35 from su-27s is too difficult, because of the upgrade that needs to be done to structure and with the new engine and such.

As for JH-7A, it was deemed to be too costly too redesign to fit two AL-31F engines, but JH-7B is a new design.
 

Sea Dog

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tphuang said:
I personally think upgrading to su-35 from su-27s is too difficult, because of the upgrade that needs to be done to structure and with the new engine and such.

As for JH-7A, it was deemed to be too costly too redesign to fit two AL-31F engines, but JH-7B is a new design.

Isn't this called the FB-7? If it's what I think you're talking about, this aircraft will significantly bolster China's ability to strike targets in all-weather environments and will have the avionics installed to carry better anti-ship weaponry. And If I'm not mistaken, it will increase range by about 20%.
 

sumdud

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Wait, isn't the JH-7B suppose to be the Su-32-alike project? Or is it an upgrade to the JH-7A?
The JH-7A might be able to carry more than 5 tonnes. The WS-9 is afterall, by majority a copy. I doubt there are much increases.
And 9 tonnes is just ridiculous.
中国航空工业界 的消息来源告诉JDW声称他们计划把生产速度增加一倍﹐
Hmm...... I don't really trust it.

And if the JH-7B is the Su-32 bomer, why don't they give it a different name? They are different planes.
 
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tphuang

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sumdud said:
Wait, isn't the JH-7B suppose to be the Su-32-alike project? Or is it an upgrade to the JH-7A?
The JH-7A might be able to carry more than 5 tonnes. The WS-9 is afterall, by majority a copy. I doubt there are much increases.
And 9 tonnes is just ridiculous.
Hmm...... I don't really trust it.

And if the JH-7B is the Su-32 bomer, why don't they give it a different name? They are different planes.
that's why it's speculated as JH-7B or JH-8.
 
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