Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

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KYli

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getready said:
Yeah I probably should have worded it better. I have read foreigners even those who are historians who consider tang as a foreign dynasty, not authentic Chinese one cuz of the xianbei blood mixed in the Li family. Who they consider not full Han bloodline. I don't buy into the Han supremacy thing of course.
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It is mostly attempts by Japan and Taiwan to spread lies and rumors about Tang Dynasty due to the fact that Japan borrowed almost every aspects of their culture and custom from Tang Dynasty. They don't feel comfortable about the fact that Li family is Han. They actively promoting and sponsoring such nonsense. Somehow, these rumors and lies gain a foothold in China and pick up by some twisted Han supremacy groups which probably are fifth column.

FairAndUnbiased said:
I mean some people call me a Han supremacist for acknowledging the historical fact that Yuan and Qing were not considered fully Chinese by their contemporaries like Jin, Song, Ming, etc when they came to power. WTF?
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Both Yuan and Qing are not Han dynasties. However, both are considered Chinese dynasty after they claim mandate of Heaven and accept Han Chinese culture and custom. That's why early days of Mongols and Manchus aren't Chinese dynasties.

It is only until both dynasties claim the mandate of Heaven, declare as successor of previous dynasty, and adopt Chinese culture and only then these two dynasties can be considered as Chinese dynasties.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

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KYli said:
Both Yuan and Qing are not Han dynasties. However, both are considered Chinese dynasty after they claim mandate of Heaven and accept Han Chinese culture and custom. That's why early days of Mongols and Manchus aren't Chinese dynasties.

It is only until both dynasties claim the mandate of Heaven, declare as successor of previous dynasty, and adopt Chinese culture and only then these two dynasties can be considered as Chinese dynasties.
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Even here, there are limitations: Northern Yuan declared they were still the true inheritors of the Chinese throne after fall of Yuan yet Ming refused to recognize their legitimacy, then conquered them as "Mongols".

So there is historical precedence to refuse to acknowledge a remnant state has the right to represent "China" and conquer them. Hmm.
 
coolgod

coolgod

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Issues as nuanced as this probably shouldn't be reduced to name-calling others Han supremacists over the internet.
solarz said:
Unfortunately, some people's patriotism stem from a tribal "us vs them" attitude, which makes them susceptible to other types of tribalism. Modern China is the polar opposite of ethnocentrism, and these are the same people who complain about policies that give advantages to non-Han ethnicities.
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The policies that give advantages to non-Han ethnicities is a legitimate topic of discussion in China. Many people of Han ethnicity choose to have their kids labeled as minorities on their ID cards so they can get bonus points on the Gaokao. This adaptation to PRC's minority policy works well for maybe a generation, it soon becomes a problem when the second generation forgets their roots and you have an explosion in (fake) minority population.

This causes many social issues for every ethnicity in China. Besides the obvious downfalls of affirmative action which we see clearly in the west, these cases of gaming the system and their associated statistics will easily be manipulated and used by the west to partition China.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
coolgod said:
Issues as nuanced as this probably shouldn't be reduced to name-calling others Han supremacists over the internet.

The policies that give advantages to non-Han ethnicities is a legitimate topic of discussion in China. Many people of Han ethnicity choose to have their kids labeled as minorities on their ID cards so they can get bonus points on the Gaokao. This adaptation to PRC's minority policy works well for maybe a generation, it soon becomes a problem when the second generation forgets their roots and you have an explosion in (fake) minority population.

This causes many social issues for every ethnicity in China. Besides the obvious downfalls of affirmative action which we see clearly in the west, these cases of gaming the system and their associated statistics will easily be manipulated and used by the west to partition China.
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Fake minority? Do you know how ethnicity works?
 
Temstar

Temstar

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KYli said:
It is mostly attempts by Japan and Taiwan to spread lies and rumors about Tang Dynasty due to the fact that Japan borrowed almost every aspects of their culture and custom from Tang Dynasty. They don't feel comfortable about the fact that Li family is Han. They actively promoting and sponsoring such nonsense. Somehow, these rumors and lies gain a foothold in China and pick up by some twisted Han supremacy groups which probably are fifth column.


Both Yuan and Qing are not Han dynasties. However, both are considered Chinese dynasty after they claim mandate of Heaven and accept Han Chinese culture and custom. That's why early days of Mongols and Manchus aren't Chinese dynasties.

It is only until both dynasties claim the mandate of Heaven, declare as successor of previous dynasty, and adopt Chinese culture and only then these two dynasties can be considered as Chinese dynasties.
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Weather or not Yuan and Qing are legit Chinese dynasties doesn't actually depend on what they think, but it depends on the judgement of the first emperor of the succeeding dynasty. With Yuan, Zhu Yuanzhang has made it plenty clear that he considers them a legitimate Chinese Dynasty and we know ROC's opinion on Qing/Manchu is they are Chinese and not barbarian (hence the Five Races Under One Union). That's it, matter settled, no one else can get a word in on this.

You might say well that's not very fair, anytime someone rises up and successfully overthrows the previous dynasty and make themself the first emperor of a new dynasty he has a lot of self interest in recognizing the previous dynasty as legitimate, so that they themselves can claim to have acquired Mandate of Heaven by defeating them. The point is anyone who disagrees with Zhu Yuanzhang and wishes to claim Yuan as illegitimate and a restoration of Song is in order should have spoken up at the time and done something about it - in successfully unifying China under his banner Zhu Yuanzhang had made any such thinking invalid. Being the first Emperor he alone gets a say on this matter, that's just one of the perks of acquiring Mandate of Heaven by force of arm.

To tie it back to this thread. Once Taiwan is taken and ROC is no more CPC will then get the final word on ROC. CPC and CPC alone will get a say on weather or not ROC was a legitimate Chinese state (almost certainly yes, I don't see anyone wanting to restore Qing) and get to write the official "they were X% good and Y% bad for China on the whole".

One of the traditions under dynastic rule is called "二王三恪" or "two crownings, three respects". Meaning the emperor of a new dynasty should honor the royal family of two previous dynasties as kings, and nobilities for the three even earlier dynasties, if they could be located. The Aisin-Gioro bloodline has died with the childless Puyi, but during his life Puyi was given a comfortable job (after being in jail for his Manchukuo thing) and CPC has already made preparation for the demise of ROC by keeping
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Tse

Tse

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Btw, many top historians on Chinese history like Prof Deng xiaonan at BeiDa and Prof Chen sanping have pointed out some points: that many of the Male-line cousins of the Tang dynasty's Li family openly claimed to have paternal Xianbei ancestry, and the Tang imperial family also edited part of their patrilineal records, spoke Xianbei language within the family household, and followed Xianbei marriage customs. Even the Zhao family of the Song dynasty had mixed Turkic ancestry, and they may have also edited the rest of their genealogy records. Both families definitely did call themselves Han but they obviously didn't think it was a very strictly defined racial term. Also, the term Han only became popular during the Northern dynasties (and it was made popular because that's how the Xianbei called the native inhabitants); Prof Yang Shaoyun also pointed out that during the Tang dynasty, people from the Jiangnan region did not call themselves as Han, which they used to refer only to the Central Plains people, and they preferred to use the regional term Wu to call themselves. During the Southern dynasties, the northerners who migrated to the south called themselves Xia, and the earlier Chinese in the south called themselves Wu; they both used the term Zhongguo (NOT Han). So yeah, all those Han supremacists who think there was a clearly defined ethnic Han people stretching back all the way to the Han dynasty are just bad at history, period.
 
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