Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

Status
Not open for further replies.

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Well Qing and Jin (the one led by Wanyan clan) were both Jurchen, yet while nobody ever questions if Jin is Chinese, there are questions about Qing. This is despite Jin being contemporary with Song, which was more prominent. Culturally, the Wanyan family was heavily pushing sinicization and Jin was fully sinicized, while Qing imposed Manchu customs on Han instead. Northern Wei is admittedly also highly sinicized.
Those are inter-ethnic conflicts, but that doesn’t mean China was dominated by foreigners.
About Yuan, the reason they are considered less Chinese than Jin, Northern Wei, etc. is because the Mongols set up a caste system and called the people of the conquered Jin dynasty "Han" subjects(汉人) (as opposed to Mongols being 国人, citizens). They had no interest in joining mainstream Chinese society.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
That is more or less a social status system, not a separation of Chinese and non Chinese. The fact that Han officials served in the Yuan court is more than enough to show that the Yuan never viewed them as foreigners.
So it isn't about what ethnicity they are, it's whether they were already a part of, or were joining, mainstream Chinese society/culture. Jin, Liao and Northern Wei indisputably joined Chinese society. Yuan did not, and Qing was questionable.
Chinese civilization isn’t defined by what clothes we wear or when we should a moon cake. It is about accepting certain fundamental values that makes Chinese the Chinese. The Yuan was ultimately Chinese since they accepted core Chinese principles. The Qing was much more successful at that. Also when you said that the Manchu imposed their customs upon the Han, you were insinuating that they were foreigners and that China is defined by its ethnicity.
 
Last edited:

solarz

Brigadier
Off topic, but I couldn’t resist on this one. I love how people here are following the US’s and Japan’s perspective of the Qing, Yuan, Liao and other non Han led states being foreign ruled when that is a load of bulls**t. They may be ruled by different ethnic groups, but they are all Chinese. I’d argue that they have a better understanding of Chinese culture and civilization than even sometimes the Han ethnic group does. This Han supremacy mentality needs to go to h*ll and stay dead.

Unfortunately, some people's patriotism stem from a tribal "us vs them" attitude, which makes them susceptible to other types of tribalism. Modern China is the polar opposite of ethnocentrism, and these are the same people who complain about policies that give advantages to non-Han ethnicities.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Those are inter-ethnic conflicts, but that doesn’t mean China was dominated by foreigners.

That is more or less a social status system, not a separation of Chinese and non Chinese. The fact that Han officials served in the Yuan court is more than enough to show that the Yuan never viewed them as foreigners.

Chinese civilization isn’t defined by what clothes we wear or when we should a moon cake. It is about accepting certain fundamental values that makes Chinese the Chinese. The Yuan was ultimately Chinese since they accepted core Chinese principles. The Qing was much more successful at that. Also when you said that the Manchu imposed their customs upon the Han, you were insinuating that they were foreigners and that China is defined by its ethnicity.
If Imperial Japan won either by destroying ROC or by holding onto Manchuria and declaring "Sino-Japanese Empire" led by Emperor Showa and demoting Pu Yi to a mere "king", would they have been considered part of the Chinese ethnic groups? if yes then I can accept this logical consistency. I mean if they allowed Pu Yi to be a king and Wang Jingwei to be a minister while controlling northern China, wouldn't that make Imperial Japan equally legitimate as a remnant ROC controlling western and southern China?
 

56860

Senior Member
Registered Member
If Imperial Japan won either by destroying ROC or by holding onto Manchuria and declaring "Sino-Japanese Empire" led by Emperor Showa and demoting Pu Yi to a mere "king", would they have been considered part of the Chinese ethnic groups? if yes then I can accept this logical consistency. I mean if they allowed Pu Yi to be a king and Wang Jingwei to be a minister while controlling northern China, wouldn't that make Imperial Japan equally legitimate as a remnant ROC controlling western and southern China?
The difference between the Yuan, Qing and Imperial Japan is that Mongols and Manchus eventually assimilated into Chinese culture whereas the Japanese had zero intention of doing so. Standing in 2022, we can say both Mongols and Manchus have sinicized to the point where they now constitute two of the 56 ethnic groups of the Chinese nation. If Japan won the war, there would be no China, but a massive Japan. Of course, it would take genocide on an unimaginable scale (hundreds of millions of Chinese slaughtered) to achieve that outcome, but knowing Imperial Japan I have zero doubt they would get it done lol.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
If Imperial Japan won either by destroying ROC or by holding onto Manchuria and declaring "Sino-Japanese Empire" led by Emperor Showa and demoting Pu Yi to a mere "king", would they have been considered part of the Chinese ethnic groups? if yes then I can accept this logical consistency. I mean if they allowed Pu Yi to be a king and Wang Jingwei to be a minister while controlling northern China, wouldn't that make Imperial Japan equally legitimate as a remnant ROC controlling western and southern China?
First off, I don't do "what if's", and you are veering away from the topic on hand and setting up a strawman argument. The topic on hand was your insinuation that the Qing, Yuan, and various other non Han ethnic group led states aren't Chinese because they don't accept Han culture. I said that such a claim is Han supremacist which is a stupid concept and that those "foreign" dynasties and states are Chinese since they accepted China's core fundamental values that makes the Chinese what they are. You are setting up a strawman argument by framing my perspective as one that supports any outside group as being Chinese as long as they integrate Chinese people into the government.

Second of all, we are going off topic already anyway. Since you are a closet Han supremacist, I have zero interest in debating with you now.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Tang dynasty, strictly speaking if we go by the foreigner or han supremacy argument, is also not truly han. Wasn't li shi min and his family of xianbei heritage?
Not really, Li family is ethnic Han. It is just Li Bing, grandfather of Li Shi Min, married Xianbei loyalty Duchess Dugu with half Xianbei and half Han blood line. Li Yuan, Li Shi Min's father, married Lady Dou who is also half Xianbei and half Han as her mother is Princess Xiangyang of Xianbei Nothern Zhou dynasty. In addition, Li Shi Min's wife is also half Xianbei and half Han.

Many people don't feel comfortable with Li family being Han as they are considered Xianbei Han. However, China always only considers the blood line of the paternal side. More importantly, Li family has restored most Han tradition and custom after coming to power like previous Sui Dynasty. So saying Li family isn't Han is just absurd.
 

MelianPretext

New Member
Registered Member
This is actually an exceedingly important thing to clarify because the failure of the USSR in losing the narrative on its collective Soviet identity is one facet of how the state was partitioned into ethnic splinter nations after its collapse. Of course, one particular challenge there was that the Soviet identity was always entirely artificial, whereas Chinese identity has been built on thousands of years of collective history.

This is why Western "Sinologists" are obsessed with chipping away at the peripheries of historical China and "othering" them as foreign groups, stripping away the Chinese identity of the Liao, Yuan and Qing and reducing being "Chinese" to essentially being "Han." If you read the seminal academic publications in the Western field like the "Cambridge History of China," you'll find that this thesis is one of their major preoccupations: the historiographical partitioning of Chinese identity.

As the Chinese saying goes, important things need to be said thrice:
Chinese culture =/= Han culture.
Chinese civilization =/= Han civilization.
Chinese people =/= Han people

Modern national states are built around a conception of ethno-nationalism. France is for the French, Poland is for the Poles, Greece is for the Greeks, etc. This is not how Chinese identity is formulated and this point is so important that the framers of the Constitution saw it necessary to explain this within that document:
"The People's Republic of China is a unitary multi-national state built up jointly by the people of all its nationalities. [...] In the struggle to safeguard the unity of the nationalities, it is necessary to combat big-nation chauvinism, mainly Han chauvinism, and also necessary to combat local-national chauvinism." - Preamble para. 10 of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China (amend. 2018).

The simplest way to understand this from a Western standpoint is recognizing that Chinese identity is more like that of the ancient Romans than modern ethno-national identities. Yes, the Latins/Italians built Rome and sure, Roman culture, governance and language pivoted around this Latin/Italian influence, but by the time of their empire, being Roman was no longer being just Latin/Italian. Spaniards, North Africans and Syrians were Romans too and they ruled the empire as as its emperors. Kublai Khan was a Mongol not a Han, but he belongs to China in the same way that the Spanish Emperor Trajan belongs to Rome despite not being Italian. Although some groups completely assimilated into Latin culture and language just as what occurred with the Han, that isn't a precondition for being Roman or Chinese.

It shows the enduring power of such collective identities (and why China's must be protected from revisionist assault by both internal ethno-nationalists and external Western "Sinology") that eventually, it was the non-Latin "Greeks" that would carry the torch of Roman identity for another thousand years after the Latin West completely fell to the Germans. There's even a famous anecdote that when Greek soldiers liberated Lesbos from the Turks in 1912, the locals were astonished that the Greek soldiers claimed they were all the same people, responding that: "You're Greeks, but we're Romans!"
 

getready

Senior Member
Not really, Li family is ethnic Han. It is just Li Bing, grandfather of Li Shi Min, married Xianbei loyalty Duchess Dugu with half Xianbei and half Han blood line. Li Yuan, Li Shi Min's father, married Lady Dou who is also half Xianbei and half Han as her mother is Princess Xiangyang of Xianbei Nothern Zhou dynasty. In addition, Li Shi Min's wife is also half Xianbei and half Han.

Many people don't feel comfortable with Li family being Han as they are considered Xianbei Han. However, China always only considers the blood line of the paternal side. More importantly, Li family has restored most Han tradition and custom after coming to power like previous Sui Dynasty. So saying Li family isn't Han is just absurd.
Yeah I probably should have worded it better. I have read foreigners even those who are historians who consider tang as a foreign dynasty, not authentic Chinese one cuz of the xianbei blood mixed in the Li family. Who they consider not full Han bloodline. I don't buy into the Han supremacy thing of course.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not really, Li family is ethnic Han. It is just Li Bing, grandfather of Li Shi Min, married Xianbei loyalty Duchess Dugu with half Xianbei and half Han blood line. Li Yuan, Li Shi Min's father, married Lady Dou who is also half Xianbei and half Han as her mother is Princess Xiangyang of Xianbei Nothern Zhou dynasty. In addition, Li Shi Min's wife is also half Xianbei and half Han.

Many people don't feel comfortable with Li family being Han as they are considered Xianbei Han. However, China always only considers the blood line of the paternal side. More importantly, Li family has restored most Han tradition and custom after coming to power like previous Sui Dynasty. So saying Li family isn't Han is just absurd.
I mean some people call me a Han supremacist for acknowledging the historical fact that Yuan and Qing were not considered fully Chinese by their contemporaries like Jin, Song, Ming, etc when they came to power. WTF?

This is actually an exceedingly important thing to clarify because the failure of the USSR in losing the narrative on its collective Soviet identity is one facet of how the state was partitioned into ethnic splinter nations after its collapse. Of course, one particular challenge there was that the Soviet identity was always entirely artificial, whereas Chinese identity has been built on thousands of years of collective history.

This is why Western "Sinologists" are obsessed with chipping away at the peripheries of historical China and "othering" them as foreign groups, stripping away the Chinese identity of the Liao, Yuan and Qing and reducing being "Chinese" to essentially being "Han." If you read the seminal academic publications in the Western field like the "Cambridge History of China," you'll find that this thesis is one of their major preoccupations: the historiographical partitioning of Chinese identity.

As the Chinese saying goes, important things need to be said thrice:
Chinese culture =/= Han culture.
Chinese civilization =/= Han civilization.
Chinese people =/= Han people

Modern national states are built around a conception of ethno-nationalism. France is for the French, Poland is for the Poles, Greece is for the Greeks, etc. This is not how Chinese identity is formulated and this point is so important that the framers of the Constitution saw it necessary to explain this within that document:


The simplest way to understand this from a Western standpoint is recognizing that Chinese identity is more like that of the ancient Romans than modern ethno-national identities. Yes, the Latins/Italians built Rome and sure, Roman culture, governance and language pivoted around this Latin/Italian influence, but by the time of their empire, being Roman was no longer being just Latin/Italian. Spaniards, North Africans and Syrians were Romans too and they ruled the empire as as its emperors. Kublai Khan was a Mongol not a Han, but he belongs to China in the same way that the Spanish Emperor Trajan belongs to Rome despite not being Italian. Although some groups completely assimilated into Latin culture and language just as what occurred with the Han, that isn't a precondition for being Roman or Chinese.

It shows the enduring power of such collective identities (and why China's must be protected from revisionist assault by both internal ethno-nationalists and external Western "Sinology") that eventually, it was the non-Latin "Greeks" that would carry the torch of Roman identity for another thousand years after the Latin West completely fell to the Germans. There's even a famous anecdote that when Greek soldiers liberated Lesbos from the Turks in 1912, the locals were astonished that the Greek soldiers claimed they were all the same people, responding that: "You're Greeks, but we're Romans!"
I would go even further to say that "Han Chinese" is no more of an ethnic group than "White American" is. I mean prior to Qin dynasty, there were 7 warring states, yet Liu Bang who founded Han was from a different "ethnicity" of Chu than from the leading ethnicity of Qin, whose to say which is more legitimate? But it is also a historical fact that sometimes peoples who were not previously part of the Chinese cultural sphere have successfully conquered at least a part of China and declared a rival government, and at that point in history, they were not yet Chinese. They may eventually become Chinese, but at a particular time in history they were not, and their origins affect their decisionmaking. Is that incredibly controversial?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top