East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blitzo · Jun 14, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
NO but I do have proof provided by PLAAF that JASDF certainly did not come anywhere near that range.

Right, and you're saying that the JASDF's F-15Js definitely didn't come within a few dozen meters in the videos shown

For your information anyone of the pictures you had posted is not anywhere near couple of dozen meters. If it was considering the size of the Russian bombers that is neatly fitted in the frame the US fighter's wings would had been within touching range of the Russians and would much seem smaller in size relative to the bombers.

Consider the length of a Tu-95 is 45m with wingspan 51m, and an F-14 is 20m, wingspan 19.55m. There's a nice photo among the many, showing an F-14 and a Tu-95 side by side, and the distance between their wingtips is less than the F-14's wingspan.
There are many photos I linked where the wingtip of an intercepting aircraft is easily a few dozen meters away from the wingtip of the intercepted aircraft.

Beyond that it's he said I said which is good considering the situation since if PLAAF does approach a JASDF aircraft closer then 100m in the future you can bet a pretty penny that Japan will disclose the vid displaying to the world on how close it came.
In a game of PR it's sometimes better to announce where the boundaries of do not enter is before the other party reaches that point.

It's absolutely normal in intercepting aircraft to get closer than 100m, and even 30m, I've literally just given you dozens of pictures showing it.

SamuraiBlue · Jun 14, 2014

joshuatree said:
Then provide the electronic readings for distance and aircraft identification then. I find no vid because it's a recon mission hard to believe. As much as I want the Chinese to provide evidence, I expect the same of the Japanese.

Visual is not required and mostly irrelevant for electronic readings in which would be monitored miles away not few meters away. I more surprised that a flight engineer would be carrying his phone with him on a mission even though he will have no use of it whatsoever the during entire endurance of the mission. Phones are easy to hack and emits EM radiation even if they are not used so I would consider them as a risk and something to be left behind.

joshuatree · Jun 14, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
Visual is not required and mostly irrelevant for electronic readings in which would be monitored miles away not few meters away. I more surprised that a flight engineer would be carrying his phone with him on a mission even though he will have no use of it whatsoever the during entire endurance of the mission. Phones are easy to hack and emits EM radiation even if they are not used so I would consider them as a risk and something to be left behind.

I still find it hard to believe a recon plane does not carry any cameras, not talking about personal cell phones. Bottom line, no evidence yet to be provided.

Blitzo · Jun 14, 2014

A video showing just how close interceptions can get:
1:22 onwards is when it really starts
[video=youtube;4_0swSRN7f4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_0swSRN7f4[/video]

At the closest point, yes the wingtips of the interceptor and the intercepted are only a few dozen meters apart.

---

After a google search of "bomber interception," this is the longest distance between an interceptor and its quarry I've found. And even then, each only looks to be about 50m away from each other at most

xiabonan · Jun 14, 2014

Air Force Brat said:
xiabonan said:

1. I just know those things, because I am the Air Force Brat, I've been observing this little waltz for 58 years, and I've learned to listen instead of talking all the time.

2. Nah, the only thing we are afraid of is the BHO team and their incompetence.

3. Moving ICBMs 90 miles off the Chinese coast would be provocative, and we wouldn't do that, even in the "cowboy era" of the early 60s, we didn't smoke the Russians or the Cubans?????? so we know how to play it kool....

China is welcomed to RimPac, if anybody in this country was "afraid" of China, that wouldn't be happening. We're trying to be pro-active in showing good faith, and nobody in China who is in the know is "afraid" of the US. However we will defend our true friends if they are threatened by neighborhood "bully's", just the way we are, but if our friends ignored our warnings to "not start something" and were the "aggressors", they would be on their own.

That's why the Captain of the Cowpens was relieved, no stupidity, cowboy acts, or incompetence will be tolerated, given the present circumstances, soldiers, sailors, and airmen are expected to be "professional" at all times......another act of good faith.

Click to expand...

I see where you're coming and I see that this argument will go nowhere if it continues. So let's rest the case and get back on topic.

I respect your patriotism and absolute confidence of American military power: and you have good reasons for that. But so am I in these regards as a Chinese.

Now that nothing is done deal and nobody could say for sure what's going to happen in the future, but I guess we all kinda know what we hope to happen. So let's all live long and healthy, and wait for the day when things change and see where it's heading to, and then we'll have solid evidence to back up our claims, or rather, our patriotism/confidence.

xiabonan · Jun 14, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
Visual is not required and mostly irrelevant for electronic readings in which would be monitored miles away not few meters away. I more surprised that a flight engineer would be carrying his phone with him on a mission even though he will have no use of it whatsoever the during entire endurance of the mission. Phones are easy to hack and emits EM radiation even if they are not used so I would consider them as a risk and something to be left behind.

First you claim there's no pictures, and whenever pictures are there you'll say they're photoshopped.

Now we released videos, and you claim even the videos are forged.

Just what kind of evidence do you need? Or you're just closing your own eyes so that you could pretend things didn't happen?

There's really no need to deny activities of the F15Js, as these are normal encounters over an ADIZ. In fact I would say it's not normal if Japanese didn't send jets. To be honest what really makes me feel bad and sorry for you guys is the way the Japanese government is handling it. Requesting the videos to be taken down? Just what kind of request is that? If you want to retaliate, send more jets next time and publish your own videos; if you want to back down, no longer send jets and agree that there's a dispute, and get back to the negotiation table; if you want to remain quiet you can do that as well.

I simply don't understand this Japanese way of doing things. When something happens you never own it up. Be it the Nanking massacre, or the dispute over Diaoyu islands, or the interception by F15s--it seems to me that the Japanese think that by removing evidences of events, they could pretend that these events didn't happen at all.

I have a lot of respect for Air Force Brat and Jeff and people like them, though I hold different if not opposite opinions from them most of the times. But for people like you, it's a different matter altogether, if you know what I mean by that.

SamuraiBlue · Jun 14, 2014

joshuatree said:
I still find it hard to believe a recon plane does not carry any cameras, not talking about personal cell phones. Bottom line, no evidence yet to be provided.

Here is a photo of a YS-11 electronic recon plane.

The windows are mostly replaced with shields so the working area has controlled ambient lighting for the engineer to concentrate in monitoring their work station. The last thing they need to do is look out a window.

Janiz · Jun 14, 2014

AssassinsMace said:
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The Japanese were caught lying and demands China withdrawal the video as if that means that never happened? They suggest those are different aircraft? What does that mean? Not the same incident? But it means that Japanese aircraft have flown dangerously close before they were complaining about Chinese aircraft. They should've admitted it as a tit-for-tat but instead now they're exposed as liars by denying it never happened. What else are they lying about?

Well, I fail to realise where's the 'big lie' from Japanese side. That was a video of typical scrambling the plain in the air keeping safe distance of few houndreds of meters from each other for a few (1-5) minutes. That's how I always imagined scrambling the aircraft in the air. Chinese side claimed that Japanese aircraft made dangerous movements and got as close to the aircraft as close as 30 meters which isn't showed in the realesed footage. If Japanese side had ever said that they don't perform scramblings in their ADIZ? Well, they publish minute statistics about the number of that 'events'. I think that Japanese protested about the realese of the video material which you don't do on normal basis just like they weren't happy about leak of the footage of Chinese and Japanese CG ships 'quarrel' off the well known islands which happened back in 2010. And I fail to realise the reason for the tone of discussion about something that everyone already knows and writing something about 'Japanese lies' as well...

Blitzo · Jun 14, 2014

Janiz said:
Well, I fail to realise where's the 'big lie' from Japanese side. That was a video of typical scrambling the plain in the air keeping safe distance of few houndreds of meters from each other for a few (1-5) minutes. That's how I always imagined scrambling the aircraft in the air. Chinese side claimed that Japanese aircraft made dangerous movements and got as close to the aircraft as close as 30 meters which isn't showed in the realesed footage. If Japanese side had ever said that they don't perform scramblings in their ADIZ? Well, they publish minute statistics about the number of that 'events'. I think that Japanese protested about the realese of the video material which you don't do on normal basis just like they weren't happy about leak of the footage of Chinese and Japanese CG ships 'quarrel' off the well known islands which happened back in 2010. And I fail to realise the reason for the tone of discussion about something that everyone already knows and calling something about 'Japanese lies' as well...

The whole point depends on how close the JASDF and PLAAF jets got to their respective targets.
Frankly, it is impossible in both the Japanese and Chinese case to properly ascertain the distance between the jets and the planes they were intercepting.

But getting within 30m or a few dozen meters is perfectly normal for interception, and that is the crux of the matter. The Japanese MoD is making it seem like getting that close is somehow a big reckless move, whereas it really isn't. Planes have been getting that close to each other since the cold war, and still do today.
China is coming out and saying, hey you're coming close to our planes too -- and they provide video to show what I think most reasonable observers would call a JASDF jet getting quite close to a PLAAF plane. Which is absolutely normal in interception jobs.

The problem is the Japanese MoD effectively putting up double standards.

It is similar to the whole issue of China's ADIZ. Japan and the US both made a ruckus about how it was supposedly unilateral and thus out of the norm and almost illegal, while keeping quiet about their own ADIZs and how ADIZs have no need to be multilaterally negotiated, and how China's ADIZ rules isn't particularly different to any other nation, nor is it particularly large for the airspace around China.

Double standards is the issue.

delft · Jun 14, 2014

Jeff Head said:
The HUGE issue in Cuba was the placement of intermediate range nuclear missiles within a very few short minutes of the Capitol, and instantaneous (for all intent and purposes) from major US population centers in Florida.

THAT was what was absolutely intolerable.

Up to that point the Russian Navy had visited the Carribean and Cuba regularly...were allied with them...and had outfitted Cuba with a lot of other equipment. The red line...and Kennedy drew it and backed it up...was the nuclear intermediate range missiles that Russia lied about, but US recon, including the RF-8 Crusaders, proved were there.

The Russian action was a reaction to the US putting its similar missiles near Moscow - Jupiter's in Turkey and Italy, Thor's in England. The agreement was made that the US would soon remove these missiles - which they did.

East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

SamuraiBlue

Captain

joshuatree

Captain

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

xiabonan

Junior Member

xiabonan

Junior Member

SamuraiBlue

Captain

Janiz

Senior Member

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

delft

Brigadier