East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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Blitzo

Blitzo

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TerraN_EmpirE said:
This is not a good or evil situation. its a Political, territorial issue
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Of course.

But still, it is a bad look when they are basically caught in this position where they're asking China to withdraw evidence of JASDF doing the same thing Japan condemned the PLAAF for doing, making them look like filthy hypocrites.

Frankly I think they could've let this thing slide into obscurity after China released their own footage, rather than histrionically saying China should remove their video off their government website (!!).
Hell, I wonder why they even bothered to make the original PLAAF interception a headline in the first place. They know the PLAAF interception wasn't particularly different to any other interception in the world, and they must have known that China would have its own footage of JASDF reciprocating. So trying to score a few low hanging PR points among those in the world who know nothing about military fundamentals, with the dangerous of making themselves look like hypocrites, seems like a needlessly high risk move.
Unless they're that desperate for some bad PR for China...
 
AssassinsMace

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The Japanese know they can lie. Why? Because this has nothing to do with who's right or wrong. This is not about weighing who has committed more wrongs than the other. It's all about whose side you're on. If the roles were the other way around, does anyone think China caught in a lie, and it being an arrogant one at that, wouldn't be the center of every argument against China? Why do I do call Japan's lie arrogant? Because evidence show they lie and they demand the video be forgotten and everyone forget it including China so they can continue on vilifying China as being the only ones that do such things. That's arrogant.

People demand China show evidence. Here's the evidence. And on top of that the Japanese still demand it never happened despite the evidence for everyone to see for themselves expecting everyone to ignore it.

This is going to be easily forgotten that Japan lied because this is not about China acting aggressively, which Japan shows they will lie about in the first place, and the world is rallying against a country who's acting against the civilized world. If this lie isn't taken as serious as when it was seen as true, there is an agenda against China going on. Are the Vietnamese lying too? Are the Filipinos?
 
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Jeff Head

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Blackstone said:
Is there any doubt if China stations planes, ships, troops, and missile systems in Cuba, a-la the Soviet Union, Washington would foam at the mouth with rage? Has the US ever been good with "what's good for the goose is good for the gender?"
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The HUGE issue in Cuba was the placement of intermediate range nuclear missiles within a very few short minutes of the Capitol, and instantaneous (for all intent and purposes) from major US population centers in Florida.

THAT was what was absolutely intolerable.

Up to that point the Russian Navy had visited the Carribean and Cuba regularly...were allied with them...and had outfitted Cuba with a lot of other equipment. The red line...and Kennedy drew it and backed it up...was the nuclear intermediate range missiles that Russia lied about, but US recon, including the RF-8 Crusaders, proved were there.
 
Blitzo

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Jeff Head said:
The HUGE issue in Cuba was the placement of intermediate range nuclear missiles within a very few short minutes of the Capitol, and instantaneous (for all intent and purposes) from major US population centers in Florida.

THAT was what was absolutely intolerable.

Up to that point the Russian Navy had visited the Carribean and Cuba regularly...were allied with them...and had outfitted Cuba with a lot of other equipment. The red line...and Kennedy drew it and backed it up...was the nuclear intermediate range missiles that Russia lied about, but US recon, including the RF-8 Crusaders, proved were there.
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You could say the same for China with regards to USN forward deploying CVBGs, CGs, and DDGs, along with a host of combat aircraft all with the capacity to carry nuclear weapons... or rain down thousands of precision guided munitions on major chinese population centers on the eastern coast.

In that same vein, I don't think the US would ever appreciate China having an equivalent force constantly patrolling only a few hundred km from washington dc, manhattan or LA, regardless of whatever kind of regional allies they have in place.
 
Jeff Head

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Bltizo said:
You could say the same for China with regards to USN forward deploying CVBGs, CGs, and DDGs, along with a host of combat aircraft all with the capacity to carry nuclear weapons... or rain down thousands of precision guided munitions on major chinese population centers on the eastern coast.
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US Navy vessels (outside of SSBNs) have not carried nuclear weapons for years. China knows this.

Bltizo said:
In that same vein, I don't think the US would ever appreciate China having an equivalent force constantly patrolling only a few hundred km from washington dc, manhattan or LA, regardless of whatever kind of regional allies they have in place.
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Never said that they would "appreciate" it, just said that if they had the capability and they felt the condition of the relationship warranted it...they would do it.

The fact is, Japan and South Korea are two close allies of the US...them's just the facts. Those nations will conduct exercises within those nation's territorial waters and within international waters.

But we digress and got off topic in this. This is really not related to the ADIZ.
 
Blitzo

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Jeff Head said:
US Navy vessels (outside of SSBNs) have not carried nuclear weapons for years. China knows this.
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Just a quick fact check, even though it's OT -- I thought the US makes it a point to not disclose which of its vessels are armed with nuclear weapons?

In NZ, the part of the cooling of US-NZ military ties were because the US wasn't willing to disclose whether its ships at dock were armed with nukes, I think.
 
SamuraiBlue

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AssassinsMace said:
The Japanese know they can lie. Why? Because this has nothing to do with who's right or wrong. This is not about weighing who has committed more wrongs than the other. It's all about whose side you're on. If the roles were the other way around, does anyone think China caught in a lie, and it being an arrogant one at that, wouldn't be the center of every argument against China? Why do I do call Japan's lie arrogant? Because evidence show they lie and they demand the video be forgotten and everyone forget it including China so they can continue on vilifying China as being the only ones that do such things. That's arrogant.

People demand China show evidence. Here's the evidence. And on top of that the Japanese still demand it never happened despite the evidence for everyone to see for themselves expecting everyone to ignore it.

This is going to be easily forgotten that Japan lied because this is not about China acting aggressively, which Japan shows they will lie about in the first place, and the world is rallying against a country who's acting against the civilized world. If this lie isn't taken as serious as when it was seen as true, there is an agenda against China going on. Are the Vietnamese lying too? Are the Filipinos?
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In the age of Photoshop and Premiere, seeing is not always believing. Photos (and film) had been staged and doctored from the dawns of optical photograph itself so that old proverb is as useless as much as the key board you type on it.
I can say one thing for sure with an overall length just shy of 20m and a wing span of 13m the F-15J is no way near 30m. If it was the plane would have occupied 2/3 of the screen and will be able to ID the pilot's name printed on the helmet with wing of each other plane almost touching each other. The very reason why Japan had responded so vocally.
The JSDF flew an EP-3 and a variant of YS-11 which is turbo prop much less maneuverable than a fighter. PLAAF can spy and or respond as much as they want as long as they place safety of both parties first.
PLAAF should not want another Hainan Island Incident on their hands.
 
Blitzo

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SamuraiBlue said:
In the age of Photoshop and Premiere, seeing is not always believing. Photos (and film) had been staged and doctored from the dawns of optical photograph itself so that old proverb is as useless as much as the key board you type on it.
I can say one thing for sure with an overall length just shy of 20m and a wing span of 13m the F-15J is no way near 30m. If it was the plane would have occupied 2/3 of the screen and will be able to ID the pilot's name printed on the helmet with wing of each other plane almost touching each other. The very reason why Japan had responded so vocally.
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Are you so confident that the video is doctored? If so, then is the Japanese MoD saying it in plain language?

More importantly, do you think the videos are doctored? We've known Japan has intercepted Chinese spy planes for years, and they release photos taken from their interceptors round the clock every year. Would it surprise you to think someone on a PLAAF bird could have pointed a video camera right back?


The JSDF flew an EP-3 and a variant of YS-11 which is turbo prop much less maneuverable than a fighter. PLAAF can spy and or respond as much as they want as long as they place safety of both parties first.
PLAAF should not want another Hainan Island Incident on their hands.
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China's videos were taken from Tu-154s and a Y-8GX --- just as unmaneuverable to an F-15J as an EP-3 or YS-11 is to a J-11.
China's just saying, hey, you can't say what we are doing is dangerous because you're doing it as well.

The distances at which both sides have intercepted each other's planes is similar to international norms for interception. So why was Japan complaining in the first place? All that is doing is making it seem like flying within 30m of a plane during interception is somehow not the norm.
 
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