Crisis in the Ukraine

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Ukraine/ Description for video: Russian spy drone shot down

[video=youtube;UHIiKppC_Ik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIiKppC_Ik&feature=player_embedded[/video]



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
The interpretation on my favorite, business oriented, radio station is that Putin has won without getting the territory and the cost of repairing the damage done by the fighting.

i dont think there is any doubt that putin has won this round, albeit an outcome that can still be overturned should ukraine somehow endure its consequences and persevere to fight another day (meaning next spring). at this stage of the game i think most of us have discerned putin's game plan as exerting indirect (but firm) control over novrossiya, starve ukraine of energy and cash, which in turn could precipitate a major crisis for poroshenko. a repeat of maidan or other potent display of popular discontent against poroshenko spells victory for putin by discrediting the very movement which propelled him into power.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
i dont think there is any doubt that putin has won this round, albeit an outcome that can still be overturned should ukraine somehow endure its consequences and persevere to fight another day (meaning next spring). at this stage of the game i think most of us have discerned putin's game plan as exerting indirect (but firm) control over novrossiya, starve ukraine of energy and cash, which in turn could precipitate a major crisis for poroshenko. a repeat of maidan or other potent display of popular discontent against poroshenko spells victory for putin by discrediting the very movement which propelled him into power.

That depends on how long Putin can hold on from those sanctions that's killing the value of the Ruble at this time. This puts a lot of stress on their economy. How much? I don't know.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
That depends on how long Putin can hold on from those sanctions that's killing the value of the Ruble at this time. This puts a lot of stress on their economy. How much? I don't know.

yes but between a cash and energy starved ukraine and somewhat isolated russia, who do you think can last longer? I am putting my money on russia. russia's economy may be at a stand still, but ukraine's economy is already in free fall. i just dont see putin folding under any amount of pressure that EU can afford to exert on him, but poroshenko is already cracking.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Seriously, did you watch the video yourself? What "Russian" drone? For all anyone could know the Ukies were shooting at a UFO. This is the same league as Ukraine's triumphant refrain of destroying a Russian armoured column inside Ukraine but having zilch to show.

It's like taking a pic of a Russian military exercise and then label it as Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Ukraine/ Description for video: Russian spy drone shot down

[video=youtube;UHIiKppC_Ik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIiKppC_Ik&feature=player_embedded[/video]



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Of course if you stand firmly on one side you'd describe NATO General Secretary Anders Rasmussen as "honest".

Outside US and Europe the rest of the world remembered him as the Denmark PM who declared to his nation that Iraq has WDM.

And then he became NATO chief. In my country that's called a golden parachute for long serving high ranking civil servants after retirement.

So today he's back to making his very unsubstantiated claims of Russian invasion which even AP travelling with the separatists for the past 2 months covering the fighting could not even produce one single photo let alone a video of Putin's 20,000 Spetnaz and 1,000 T-90 tanks.

Some also know him as Anders “Fogh of War” Rasmussen.

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Yes, this Renussen is an "honest" man, because you said so.

BTW, conspiracies don't go away just because you deny they exist.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Germany and France to consider sending drones of OSCE.

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Let it be a known fact, though often ignored because it is an Inconvenient Truth, that Russia has welcomed and invited OSCE monitors to monitor the Russia border crossings since July. And these OSCE has never faulted Russia in any way.
You can read the daily OSCE reports on a link from one of my posts.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
There are no neo nazis in Ukraine!! I had actually came across this statement in a discussion on Facebook. The poster said that are no photo evidences of such activities. I didn't bother to give him the many internet links easily found in a Google search.

Seems the west is now open to neo nazi organisations when once they were like Black Death anywhere.

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delft

Brigadier
i dont think there is any doubt that putin has won this round, albeit an outcome that can still be overturned should ukraine somehow endure its consequences and persevere to fight another day (meaning next spring). at this stage of the game i think most of us have discerned putin's game plan as exerting indirect (but firm) control over novrossiya, starve ukraine of energy and cash, which in turn could precipitate a major crisis for poroshenko. a repeat of maidan or other potent display of popular discontent against poroshenko spells victory for putin by discrediting the very movement which propelled him into power.
You're somewhat abstract about Ukraine. The wages in the Ukrainian textile industry are a third of those in China. As far as Ukrainians want accession to EU it is to escape Ukraine to work for higher wages in the better EU countries.
Putin has won this round but what he wants is regime change. In 1991 in Russia and Ukraine the state was cut down and the power went in both countries to a score of oligarchs. In Russia the oligarchs chose a colorless bureaucrat to succeed the alcoholic Yeltsin, Putin, but they were mistaken. Many went to live in London, one went to live in Siberia for may years, paid for by the state. In Ukraine the oligarchs still own the members of parliament.
After the coup in Februari when the change of front of one oligarch owning forty members of parliament let to the new regime that was manifestly depedant on neo-nazi's outside the parliament because too few Ukrainians support it. The war in the East was fought by the Ukrainian army with support from police forces who were re-orginised for their new task but remained under command of the Interior Ministry, private armies of oligarchs ( see
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for the background of one such private army ) and neo-nazi voluntary battallions from the North-West of Ukraine. This doesn't provide a basis for a democratic country.
The Ukrainian army has been effectively demoralised by being defeated time and again by numerically inferior but tactically superior forces. And if the war is to continue it will be in the winter, it will not wait for the next spring. Ukrainians were very well trained in Russia to fight the regime. I have the notion that those who are now in training are being prepared to fight this winter rather than being used to extent the sommer fighting season. That too will have been a factor in the truce that is now achieve. Of course Russia would prefer not to see more war on its border, but that will depend on the political developments in Kiev.
 
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